Mothra said:

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quash said:

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Mothra said:

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quash said:

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Mothra said:

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quash said:

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Mothra said:

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quash said:

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Mothra said:

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quash said:

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Mothra said:

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RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RMF5630 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RMF5630 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RMF5630 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?

---

This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.

---

"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"

Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.

Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.

---

I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.

So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.

---

You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.

---

I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.

---

No. You addressed sin.

---

Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.

---

Yes. Yes you did.

But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.

And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Be more careful.

---

My statement that "I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion" and my use of the example addresses his point that "even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong." As my post points out, that's actually not the case. Many people don't know what they're doing is wrong (i.e. sin). Perhaps it is my use of the word sin instead of wrong that is tripping you up, but in either regard, I addressed his point, contrary to your assertions.

---

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

It is exactly your use of sin instead of wrong that is causing me to trip. That is a qualitative change, which is why I think it is non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Let me put it a different way. I don't think you adequately addressed his point, but you did carefully make your point.

---

Even if we use the word "wrong" instead of "sin," it doesn't change my response to his post. If someone doesn't understand that something is wrong (and therefore sinful), then they also need to hear about the consequences of doing wrong, and the corresponding need for grace. As I said before, I have encountered countless people who, although they would acknowledge they've broken the 10 commandments, didn't understand the consequences of it. Whether you agree with the Christian tenets or not, a bedrock of the faith is the depravity of man, and need for a savior.

---

And outside of the Christian faith no such requirement exists.

Given the number of non-believers around you might have better luck with a harm analysis that excludes the consequences of sin and instead showed the consequences of the specific action.

---

If we weren't having a religious discussion about how to best witness to nonbelievers I might agree.

---

Trying to offer insight from a non-believer. Sin is a real non- starter.

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?

---

This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.

---

"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"

Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.

Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.

---

I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.

So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.

---

You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.

---

I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.

---

No. You addressed sin.

---

Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.

---

Yes. Yes you did.

But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.

And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Be more careful.

---

My statement that "I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion" and my use of the example addresses his point that "even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong." As my post points out, that's actually not the case. Many people don't know what they're doing is wrong (i.e. sin). Perhaps it is my use of the word sin instead of wrong that is tripping you up, but in either regard, I addressed his point, contrary to your assertions.

---

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

It is exactly your use of sin instead of wrong that is causing me to trip. That is a qualitative change, which is why I think it is non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Let me put it a different way. I don't think you adequately addressed his point, but you did carefully make your point.

---

Even if we use the word "wrong" instead of "sin," it doesn't change my response to his post. If someone doesn't understand that something is wrong (and therefore sinful), then they also need to hear about the consequences of doing wrong, and the corresponding need for grace. As I said before, I have encountered countless people who, although they would acknowledge they've broken the 10 commandments, didn't understand the consequences of it. Whether you agree with the Christian tenets or not, a bedrock of the faith is the depravity of man, and need for a savior.

---

And outside of the Christian faith no such requirement exists.

Given the number of non-believers around you might have better luck with a harm analysis that excludes the consequences of sin and instead showed the consequences of the specific action.

---

If we weren't having a religious discussion about how to best witness to nonbelievers I might agree.

---

Trying to offer insight from a non-believer. Sin is a real non- starter.

---

But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

pertinent to the topic at hand and SPOT. ON.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/

"What we're seeing now is an amplification of what I wrote about five years ago: an intense spiritual hunger that has no outlet. There's no way to see people kneeling, or singing 'Hands up, don't shoot', or swaying while they hold up candles, and avoid acknowledging that it's driven by a spiritual desire. I perceived this when I wrote about Occupy Wall Street, and it's become even more like this. It is an intense spiritual hunger that is manifesting itself more violently. Because to the post-Protestants, the world is an outrage and we are all sinners"

The left is replacing religion with politics.

whiterock said:

---

pertinent to the topic at hand and SPOT. ON.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/

"What we're seeing now is an amplification of what I wrote about five years ago: an intense spiritual hunger that has no outlet. There's no way to see people kneeling, or singing 'Hands up, don't shoot', or swaying while they hold up candles, and avoid acknowledging that it's driven by a spiritual desire. I perceived this when I wrote about Occupy Wall Street, and it's become even more like this. It is an intense spiritual hunger that is manifesting itself more violently. Because to the post-Protestants, the world is an outrage and we are all sinners"

The left is replacing religion with politics.

---

Why the evangelical/conservative faiths not filled that "intense spiritual hunger."

Waco1947 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

pertinent to the topic at hand and SPOT. ON.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/

"What we're seeing now is an amplification of what I wrote about five years ago: an intense spiritual hunger that has no outlet. There's no way to see people kneeling, or singing 'Hands up, don't shoot', or swaying while they hold up candles, and avoid acknowledging that it's driven by a spiritual desire. I perceived this when I wrote about Occupy Wall Street, and it's become even more like this. It is an intense spiritual hunger that is manifesting itself more violently. Because to the post-Protestants, the world is an outrage and we are all sinners"

The left is replacing religion with politics.

---

Why the evangelical/conservative faiths not filled that "intense spiritual hunger."

---

Well, for starters, there is a manifest sense of fulfillment from taking elected leaders to the killing fields that no conventional worship service can match. Former offers justice TODAY whereas latter promises it only in eternity.

whiterock said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

pertinent to the topic at hand and SPOT. ON.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/ Killing fields?

"What we're seeing now is an amplification of what I wrote about five years ago: an intense spiritual hunger that has no outlet. There's no way to see people kneeling, or singing 'Hands up, don't shoot', or swaying while they hold up candles, and avoid acknowledging that it's driven by a spiritual desire. I perceived this when I wrote about Occupy Wall Street, and it's become even more like this. It is an intense spiritual hunger that is manifesting itself more violently. Because to the post-Protestants, the world is an outrage and we are all sinners"

The left is replacing religion with politics.

---

Why the evangelical/conservative faiths not filled that "intense spiritual hunger."

---

Well, for starters, there is a manifest sense of fulfillment from taking elected leaders to the killing fields that no conventional worship service can match. Former offers justice TODAY whereas latter promises it only in eternity.

---

Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?

---

This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.

---

"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"

Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.

Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.

---

I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.

So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.

---

You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.

---

I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.

---

No. You addressed sin.

---

Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.

---

Yes. Yes you did.

But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.

And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Be more careful.

---

My statement that "I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion" and my use of the example addresses his point that "even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong." As my post points out, that's actually not the case. Many people don't know what they're doing is wrong (i.e. sin). Perhaps it is my use of the word sin instead of wrong that is tripping you up, but in either regard, I addressed his point, contrary to your assertions.

---

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

It is exactly your use of sin instead of wrong that is causing me to trip. That is a qualitative change, which is why I think it is non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Let me put it a different way. I don't think you adequately addressed his point, but you did carefully make your point.

---

Even if we use the word "wrong" instead of "sin," it doesn't change my response to his post. If someone doesn't understand that something is wrong (and therefore sinful), then they also need to hear about the consequences of doing wrong, and the corresponding need for grace. As I said before, I have encountered countless people who, although they would acknowledge they've broken the 10 commandments, didn't understand the consequences of it. Whether you agree with the Christian tenets or not, a bedrock of the faith is the depravity of man, and need for a savior.

---

And outside of the Christian faith no such requirement exists.

Given the number of non-believers around you might have better luck with a harm analysis that excludes the consequences of sin and instead showed the consequences of the specific action.

---

If we weren't having a religious discussion about how to best witness to nonbelievers I might agree.

---

Trying to offer insight from a non-believer. Sin is a real non- starter.

---

But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

---

LOL.

Quote:

---

Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

---

Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Quote:

---

Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

---

Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

---

"inner"?

in the world of the Gospel it is the killjoys, the phonies, the nitpickers, the holier-than-thous, the loveless and cheerless and irrelevant who more often than not wear the fancy clothes and go riding around in sleek little European jobs marked Pharisee, Corps Diplomatique, Legislature, Clergy(old bear and redbrick, et al) It is the ravening wolves who wear sheep's clothing. And the good ones, the potentially good anyway, the ones who stand a chance of being saved by God because they know they don't stand a chance of being saved by anybody else? They go around looking like the town *****, the village drunk, the crook from the IRS, because that is who they are. When Jesus is asked who is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven, he reaches into the crowd and pulls out a child with a cheek full of bubble gum and eyes full of whatever a child's eyes are full of and says unless you can become like that, don't bother to ask.

-Originally published in Telling the Truth
Frederick Buechner

Thanks for your opinion, Waco.

It's 179 degrees off truth, but at least you are participating with more detail than usual.

It is strange that a self-claimed minister would use humanist teaching against the Word of God, but you have made clear that you prefer to oppose God rather than serve Him.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Thanks for your opinion, Waco.

It's 179 degrees off truth, but at least you are participating with more detail than usual.

It is strange that a self-claimed minister would use humanist teaching against the Word of God, but you have made clear that you prefer to oppose God rather than serve Him.

---

K=Let's start over. I have made clearin my that God's nature is love, goodness, and justice.
I would like for to Get clear on you're first foremost understanding of the reality of God. Your God is based on your interpretation of Scripture and my God is based on my interpretation of scripture. First and foremost is that God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.
Here is my understanding of the core reality of God, my theism

Premise God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.
2. The two commandments are Love God and your neighbor as yourself and the law on these commandments stand all the prophets
Therefore love in all its fullness in God is the primary nature of God

2. Lay our your premises and your therefore
I am genuinely interested.

So please, help me understand your first foremost understanding of the reality of God

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Thanks for your opinion, Waco.

It's 179 degrees off truth, but at least you are participating with more detail than usual.

It is strange that a self-claimed minister would use humanist teaching against the Word of God, but you have made clear that you prefer to oppose God rather than serve Him.

---

K=Let's start over. I have made clearin my that God's nature is love, goodness, and justice.
I would like for to Get clear on you're first foremost understanding of the reality of God. Your God is based on your interpretation of Scripture and my God is based on my interpretation of scripture. First and foremost is that God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.
Here is my understanding of the core reality of God, my theism

Premise God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.
2. The two commandments are Love God and your neighbor as yourself and the law on these commandments stand all the prophets
Therefore love in all its fullness in God is the primary nature of God

2. Lay our your premises and your therefore
I am genuinely interested.

So please, help me understand your first foremost understanding of the reality of God

---

Didn't you say earlier that the bible is unreliable? So if your God is "based on [your] interpretation of scripture" then isn't your understanding of the nature of God similarly unreliable?

You need to help us first understand the basis of your whole premise.

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Thanks for your opinion, Waco.

It's 179 degrees off truth, but at least you are participating with more detail than usual.

It is strange that a self-claimed minister would use humanist teaching against the Word of God, but you have made clear that you prefer to oppose God rather than serve Him.

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K=Let's start over. I have made clearin my that God's nature is love, goodness, and justice.
I would like for to Get clear on you're first foremost understanding of the reality of God. Your God is based on your interpretation of Scripture and my God is based on my interpretation of scripture. First and foremost is that God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.
Here is my understanding of the core reality of God, my theism

Premise God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.
2. The two commandments are Love God and your neighbor as yourself and the law on these commandments stand all the prophets
Therefore love in all its fullness in God is the primary nature of God

2. Lay our your premises and your therefore
I am genuinely interested.

So please, help me understand your first foremost understanding of the reality of God

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No, Waco, I have taken pains to post a great deal of detail.

It is well past your turn to provide specific Scripture which supports your claims that God does not care about the Law or Justice, that no one needs to repent to go to Heaven.

You say you love God. How do you love God if you will not do what He Commands?

The conception that a lot of people have about religion is that churches are full of poor and/or uneducated people.

The data says:

College educated folks who have household incomes between $40K and $120K are the most likely to attend religious services. pic.twitter.com/iV5c9HZL8I

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) May 5, 2023

Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.

Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:

Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.

- Jim Palmer

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Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.

Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.

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Maybe so but the truth of his statements still stand

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Does it? Does it comport with Christ's teachings? Many of them directly conflict. So, I think any Christian would have a hard time claiming the avowed Athiest, Palmer, is speaking truth.

It's interesting how often you agree with Atheists and agnostics on religious issues. One would think it would alert you to some needed soul searching. You might be in the wrong profession.

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I have struggled to understand 47's posts, but alas, they make no sense to me theologically or logically. I sense that you, too, have struggled.
I post excerpts of this excellent article written by a Methodist. It is too long to post here, but is a good summary of what is going on in the UMC.

Methodism's Messy Divorce
Over time, we then welcomed more and more ministers who essentially crossed their fingers behind their backs while taking the required ordination vows of doctrinal loyalty. Some have frankly admitted to lying through this process in order to change the church from within. Many such clergy members ascended to the highest levels of denominational leadership.

Meanwhile, influenced by the legacy of the Social Gospel movement, our bureaucracy developed a habit of routine advocacy on every U.S. political controversy and consistent aligning with the left wing of the Democratic Party. Causes promoted by the UMC's liberal bureaucracy in recent years have included establishing "open borders" (their words), demonizing Israel, opposing sanctions against North Korea, broadly decriminalizing drug use and prostitution, decrying American gun culture, and supporting reparations for African Americans. Politically conservative United Methodists have shown little interest in any mirror-image approach.

More than 2,400 U.S. congregations have left since 2019, a figure that should more than double by the end of the year. Those that have disaffiliated or are pursuing disaffiliation include one quarter of the UMC's 100 largest congregations in America. Overseas, entire Eastern European regions have already begun leaving, with many African and Filipino departures expected to follow. Most of those departing are joining the Global Methodist Church, a new denomination formed by orthodox United Methodists. May this new denomination, and other denominations, learn from the UMC's mistakes. Christian churches should welcome a wide range of people, but they must also be clear about what exactly they are welcoming those people into.
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2023/05/15/methodisms-messy-divorce/

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From my understanding, this sounds exactly like what happened at Austin Ave Methodist in Waco. I understand the church eventually died and First Methodist of Waco took it over.

Christianity is not the only thing in decline in the USA.

It's religion in general.

And a host of other values as well that are in decline.

Doubt you'll ever see any of these values rebound in the present USA. https://t.co/hITZU1VUt4

— Dissident Soaps (@DissidentSoaps) May 7, 2023

The surface level findings...

Values with declining importance:

• Hard work
• Having children
• Community involvement
• Religion
• Patriotism

Values with increasing importance:

• Money pic.twitter.com/sZudvxeHci

— Sahil Bloom (@SahilBloom) May 7, 2023

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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ob83 "You ignore Scripture, Waco, Good lord what is wrong with you I literally quoted scripture

You also 'paraphrase' Jesus teachings to suit your humanist agenda. I am Christian not a humanist you liar.You did not get to deny my faith. Jesus decides my faith not you.

You wanted more response from me, I gave you pages of references and you still can do no better than lie and pretend Jesus was no better than, as you claimed, "a narcissist".Good lord what is the matter with you. You claimed some stupid narcissist views and I quoted scripture that undid narcissism claim and then asked Is Jesus a narcissist? Do not misquote liar.

Thank you for one thing. Your behavior in this thread has revealed your shallow, hate-towards-God character.You damn pharisee. I know God, I have faith in God (not your God) and you sir, are not God.

I had hoped you would turn from your sin. I see now you are enamoured with it.You are a Pharisee dotting every iota and tittle about "sinners" but failing to see your loveless ways. There is nothing about any of your posts that would lead sinner out of their disconnect with God. All you have is an angry God who will smite sinners i.e. the wheat and tares or the sheep and the goats.You really want the tares and the goats to burn. No wonder people find your God repugnant. Those scriptures are literally about the nature of God's patience and steadfast love for us(Mt 13) and the literal presence of Christ in our midst in our down and out brothers and sisters. These passages are not about sinners but God's reality in our midst.

God help you, sir. God give you love, sir

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You quote no Scripture, Waco.

Very strange for a 'minister'.

And for all your anger, I am no Pharisee. You are simply not a Christian, as defined by Scripture.

You speak of "love" but you clearly mean license. You do nothing to turn anyone away from their own destruction, you see nothing of the harms of lust, greed, gluttony, lies, or any of the sins set out in Scripture.

Before you start another rant, consider that the God of the Old Testament, whom you hate, is the same God of the New Testament. OT Scripture is full of foretelling Christ, and God's mercy is evident throughout the Old Testament. You miss that because you hate God's Law.

The New Testament is also full of Judgment and Consequence. You ignore that Jesus was furious and drove out the Merchants in the Temple. You ignore that Jesus also cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit (an important passage, not a mistake or trivial thing). You ignore that Jesus said that it would have been better if the one who betrayed Him had never been born. You ignore Jesus' words regarding those who do not follow the Law.

As for misquoting, you did post that (in your opinion) Jesus was a Narcissist. If you now count that as false, find a mirror to make your accusations.

And you certainly like to lie about me! Unlike you, I care about the consequence of doing evil, because I see where it leads. You would supply strong drink to the alcoholic, drugs to the addict, and irreversible surgery to the sexually confused, simply because you see nothing wrong in what that does. I have never claimed to be perfect and certainly have my own sins to fight against, but I will not pretend evil is good simply because it's easier to accept it than fight it.

You are correct that I am not God. Neither are you, sir. This is precisely why I cited and quoted all that Scripture, to show what God has said on these matters,

And you have not even addressed any of them!

Yet you imagine you are speaking for God.

How do you know who or what speaks through you, if you do not test your words against Scripture, if you play at vague assumption as if Christ's teachings were spiritual Play-Doh, so 'love' means whatever suits your argument, with nothing for the human to do to improve,

Have you not noticed that Jesus always told those He healed to take action, such as 'rise and walk', or 'tell me what you see'. Jesus also always reminded people to 'go and sin no more'.

I took care to answer you with an abundance of Scripture, so that there would be no confusion, and that you would see I do not speak on these points from my own opinion.

You responded with vague claims unsupported by Scripture, and have exploded in anger when called out for your failure to defend your claims. What spirit dwells in you, that hate and anger and denial are your first choices?

Now it is true that unlike others here, I speak bluntly. But even there I follow precedent. See how Jeremiah spoke to Zedekiah, or Peter to Ananias, or Daniel to Balshazzar, or Jonah to the people of Nineveh.

Sometimes God sends stern warnings.

The good news is that you may yet turn from your sin. The question is whether you will choose to do so.

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I admire the effort you have put into this discussion .

It's funny how the religious minded often have the most trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong i.e. Ginni and Clarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Catholic Clergy, Southern Baptist administration, Jerry Falwell, Jr., many posters on this board etc.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Thanks for your opinion, Waco.

It's 179 degrees off truth, but at least you are participating with more detail than usual.

It is strange that a self-claimed minister would use humanist teaching against the Word of God, but you have made clear that you prefer to oppose God rather than serve Him.

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K=Let's start over. I have made clearin my that God's nature is love, goodness, and justice.
I would like for to Get clear on you're first foremost understanding of the reality of God. Your God is based on your interpretation of Scripture and my God is based on my interpretation of scripture. First and foremost is that God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.
Here is my understanding of the core reality of God, my theism

Premise God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.
2. The two commandments are Love God and your neighbor as yourself and the law on these commandments stand all the prophets
Therefore love in all its fullness in God is the primary nature of God

2. Lay our your premises and your therefore
I am genuinely interested.

So please, help me understand your first foremost understanding of the reality of God

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Didn't you say earlier that the bible is unreliable? So if your God is "based on [your] interpretation of scripture" then isn't your understanding of the nature of God similarly unreliable?

You need to help us first understand the basis of your whole premise.

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You raise some interesting questions for me which I will address
but you are avoiding your premise about God. Give me clarity on what you believe.

TexasScientist said:

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It's funny how the religious minded often have the most trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong i.e. Ginni and Clarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Catholic Clergy, Southern Baptist administration, Jerry Falwell, Jr., many posters on this board etc.

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Cool story bro!

You do realize that Christians are not to worshipClarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell et al ? You speaking to the failures of men does nothing but support what scripture tells us. Should I take this as an indicator that you are returning to the Christian faith?

You can get rid of Christianity…but you can't get rid of religion.

You will only get stranger and stranger religions

Getting more Maoist out there every day, boyos https://t.co/o7eb9bw1Bx

— Oilfield Rando (@Oilfield_Rando) May 8, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

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You can get rid of Christianity…but you can't get rid of religion.

You will only get stranger and stranger religions

Getting more Maoist out there every day, boyos https://t.co/o7eb9bw1Bx

— Oilfield Rando (@Oilfield_Rando) May 8, 2023

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yep. so much of what we see from the left, including a few of the ones here, is faith-based political ideology.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/

whiterock said:

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pertinent to the topic at hand and SPOT. ON.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/

"What we're seeing now is an amplification of what I wrote about five years ago: an intense spiritual hunger that has no outlet. There's no way to see people kneeling, or singing 'Hands up, don't shoot', or swaying while they hold up candles, and avoid acknowledging that it's driven by a spiritual desire. I perceived this when I wrote about Occupy Wall Street, and it's become even more like this. It is an intense spiritual hunger that is manifesting itself more violently. Because to the post-Protestants, the world is an outrage and we are all sinners"

The left is replacing religion with politics.

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Absolutely.

They're replacing religion with cultism to be more precise.

It fits the definition of a cult because cult behavior consists of recruiting people through systematic social influence processes.

What cult leaders do is they shower vulnerable people with praise to get them to join. The hallmark of cults is they're abusive when they're questioned and they demonize those that attempt to leave. This is what happens when you go against the "progressive" narrative of modern society.

JK Rowling is a good example: she's a lefty that questioned trans ideology and now she's perceived by the left as evil.

Doc Holliday said:

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whiterock said:

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pertinent to the topic at hand and SPOT. ON.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/

"What we're seeing now is an amplification of what I wrote about five years ago: an intense spiritual hunger that has no outlet. There's no way to see people kneeling, or singing 'Hands up, don't shoot', or swaying while they hold up candles, and avoid acknowledging that it's driven by a spiritual desire. I perceived this when I wrote about Occupy Wall Street, and it's become even more like this. It is an intense spiritual hunger that is manifesting itself more violently. Because to the post-Protestants, the world is an outrage and we are all sinners"

The left is replacing religion with politics.

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JK Rowling is a good example: she's a lefty that questioned trans ideology and now she's perceived by the left as evil.

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People literally call her "right-wing" now on twitter.

She is a radical feminist and yet she is now right-wing because she questions one point of modern progressive ideology.

Ancient Man v/s Modern Man, G.K Chesterton:

"Man has always lost his way. He has been a tramp ever since Eden; but he always knew, or thought he knew, what he was looking for.

But in the bleak and blinding hail of skepticism to which he has been now so long subjected, he has begun for the first time to be chilled, not merely in his hopes, but in his desires.

For the first time in history he begins really to doubt the object of his wanderings on the earth. He has always been lost but now he has forgotten his address."

Redbrickbear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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whiterock said:

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pertinent to the topic at hand and SPOT. ON.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/

"What we're seeing now is an amplification of what I wrote about five years ago: an intense spiritual hunger that has no outlet. There's no way to see people kneeling, or singing 'Hands up, don't shoot', or swaying while they hold up candles, and avoid acknowledging that it's driven by a spiritual desire. I perceived this when I wrote about Occupy Wall Street, and it's become even more like this. It is an intense spiritual hunger that is manifesting itself more violently. Because to the post-Protestants, the world is an outrage and we are all sinners"

The left is replacing religion with politics.

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JK Rowling is a good example: she's a lefty that questioned trans ideology and now she's perceived by the left as evil.

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People literally call her "right-wing" now on twitter.

She is a radical feminist and yet she is now right-wing because she questions one point of modern progressive ideology.

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They eat their own. Eventually they target their opponents.

Reminds me of Communists/Stalin and the Kulaks.

Quote:

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Stalin believed any future insurrection would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at "liquidating the Kulaks as a class." Declared "enemies of the people," the Kulaks were left homeless and without a single possession as everything was taken from them, even their pots and pans.

Link

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Kulaks were higher-income farmers and commies killed over 30K of them. Had them taken from their homes and shot in the head. About 2 million were forcibly deported to the Far North and Siberia. It lead to a huge famine because in doing so it depleted farmers and farming knowledge.

5.7 to 8.7 million people died of famine across the Soviet Union as a result. They shot themselves in the foot.

The whole gist of this was that Kulaks were considered upper class and beneficiaries of ill gotten gains. Modern rhetoric is very similar and very much racial based with accusations of white privilage and people born with a silver spoon.

This happened less than 100 years ago. Modern leftist ideology today probably won't lead to mass genocide, but it will likely lead to serious government tyranny resulting in a major disaster.

The Southern Baptist Convention just released its membership statistics from 2022.

The news is bad. Very bad.

The largest single year decline ever.

A deep dive here, with some other indicators of a really bleak future. https://t.co/4qMKQw29uk

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) May 10, 2023

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1437610343721578/

Christianity isn't collapsing. Some denominations in USA are losing members. Christianity outside the US is prospering.

Churches teaching the full counsel of God are doing just fine

Osodecentx said:

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Christianity isn't collapsing. Some denominations in USA are losing members. Christianity outside the US is prospering.

Churches teaching the full counsel of God are doing just fine

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The title of the thread is "The Collapse of Christian Faith in the US"

It its most certainly in collapse inside the United States.

But yes you are correct that while it has collapsed in the EU and is collapsing in the USA....Christianity is still thriving around the world.

Osodecentx said:

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Christianity isn't collapsing. Some denominations in USA are losing members. Christianity outside the US is prospering.

Churches teaching the full counsel of God are doing just fine

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Yes, it is growing in countries where the supernatural/superstition is ok and the people are still non scientific.

Osodecentx said:

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Christianity isn't collapsing. Some denominations in USA are losing members. Christianity outside the US is prospering.

Churches teaching the full counsel of God are doing just fine By which you mean your interpretation of scripture. Be honest admit it at least.

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