Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

I will certainly not argue with you about the tithing thing. Very troubling how some churches (of whatever denomination) making tithing a major issue. Very salesman-ish/ corporate America thing to do.

But the decline in Mass attendance among Catholics and the decline in Protestant Christianity is nothing new.

Its been a very noticeable trend since the 1960s.

Vatican II did nothing to stop the decline...some argue it accelerated the trend.

Mainline Protestants are in decline the most...and have been for decades.

So no one has figured this issue out.

It certainly is not a new thing with Gen. Z (it started with the silent generation and the boomers)

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

Disregard. Misread forest's post.

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The Christian church needs to preach the Word. It is about Truth, not popularity. The churches in Africa are full.

---

The Word is not about beating people up or guilt. Jesus told parables and let people make up their own minds, he did not hammer those that showed up. He laid it out there and then were left to make up free will. Listen to the sermon at many of the services, rarely do they even discuss the readings. It is about the Bishop's Appeal, Guest Speaker from some Mission asking for money. I agree the Word would do well, it is the rest that drive people away.

It is not just one denomination, build an 8 acre site with Church, school, day care and 15 meeting rooms, you now have pay roll. In the immortal words of the SMU, you can't stop (and just preach the Word in this case) you got a payroll to meet. Seems the Word gets lost... Best sermons and services I ever went to were on the hood of HUM-V in the field, 17 minutes with sermon and sacraments. Those messages stuck.

RMF5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The Christian church needs to preach the Word. It is about Truth, not popularity. The churches in Africa are full.

---

The Word is not about beating people up or guilt. Jesus told parables and let people make up their own minds, he did not hammer those that showed up. He laid it out there and then were left to make up free will. Listen to the sermon at many of the services, rarely do they even discuss the readings. It is about the Bishop's Appeal, Guest Speaker from some Mission asking for money. I agree the Word would do well, it is the rest that drive people away.

It is not just one denomination, build an 8 acre site with Church, school, day care and 15 meeting rooms, you now have pay roll. In the immortal words of the SMU, you can't stop (and just preach the Word in this case) you got a payroll to meet. Seems the Word gets lost... Best sermons and services I ever went to were on the hood of HUM-V in the field, 17 minutes with sermon and sacraments. Those messages stuck.

---

The Gospel is ll about freedom from guilt. If you're being hammered, perhaps shop around for a new church.

I have no problem with a body of believers coming together to establish a church with a building and a school. I just don't see it as a profit making organization (Osteen & some other charlatans excepted).

One of my more memorable partaking of sacraments was Diet Coke and Ritz crackers on a beach

RMF5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The Christian church needs to preach the Word. It is about Truth, not popularity. The churches in Africa are full.

---

The Word is not about beating people up or guilt. Jesus told parables and let people make up their own minds, he did not hammer those that showed up. He laid it out there and then were left to make up free will. Listen to the sermon at many of the services, rarely do they even discuss the readings. It is about the Bishop's Appeal, Guest Speaker from some Mission asking for money. I agree the Word would do well, it is the rest that drive people away.

It is not just one denomination, build an 8 acre site with Church, school, day care and 15 meeting rooms, you now have pay roll. In the immortal words of the SMU, you can't stop (and just preach the Word in this case) you got a payroll to meet. Seems the Word gets lost... Best sermons and services I ever went to were on the hood of HUM-V in the field, 17 minutes with sermon and sacraments. Those messages stuck.

---

Good points.

Reminds me of an a situation that the Episcopal Church got into.

They have their headquarters in New York...in an expensive building.

Yet as the Episcopal church basically implodes...they fought against calls to sell the building and move to a cheaper city and a cheaper headquarters.

Buildings and land in the end have a way of holding you down.

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

Thankfully, I left that church. Still, any church pushing a giving requirement, and there are a bunch of them who do, need to reevaluate what the New Testament actually taught the churches and follow it.

I think the NT teaches us to give the Mission. We give for ourselves, not the recipient

RMF5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The Christian church needs to preach the Word. It is about Truth, not popularity. The churches in Africa are full.

---

The Word is not about beating people up or guilt. Jesus told parables and let people make up their own minds, he did not hammer those that showed up. He laid it out there and then were left to make up free will. Listen to the sermon at many of the services, rarely do they even discuss the readings. It is about the Bishop's Appeal, Guest Speaker from some Mission asking for money. I agree the Word would do well, it is the rest that drive people away.

It is not just one denomination, build an 8 acre site with Church, school, day care and 15 meeting rooms, you now have pay roll. In the immortal words of the SMU, you can't stop (and just preach the Word in this case) you got a payroll to meet. Seems the Word gets lost... Best sermons and services I ever went to were on the hood of HUM-V in the field, 17 minutes with sermon and sacraments. Those messages stuck.

---

I've attended mass many times with my wife. She is Catholic and I'm Baptist.

I've seen a change depending on who the bishop was at the time as to how often the comment was made about money and not giving enough. At one mass, the priest said " if all you can do is a couple dollars, don't bother." The man down the pew from us emptied all his loose change into the plate making sure to do it from high enough it made plenty of noise. In that case, neither the priest nor the parishioner had the right heart.

I've been I Baptist churches where they preached tithing and Baptist churches where they preached giving with a cheerful heart.

Everyone can do it wrong or right. We all stumble, even preacher/priest. They are also held to a higher standard than the average person is and they all know that.

I think we all know there has been plenty of abuses with the money thing so, let's move on to the next thing. What about the guilt of sin? Should it be taught, stressed, soft-peddled, avoided?

It says in Luke, "Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

So what do we each seek from mass/church?

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The Christian church needs to preach the Word. It is about Truth, not popularity. The churches in Africa are full.

---

The Word is not about beating people up or guilt. Jesus told parables and let people make up their own minds, he did not hammer those that showed up. He laid it out there and then were left to make up free will. Listen to the sermon at many of the services, rarely do they even discuss the readings. It is about the Bishop's Appeal, Guest Speaker from some Mission asking for money. I agree the Word would do well, it is the rest that drive people away.

It is not just one denomination, build an 8 acre site with Church, school, day care and 15 meeting rooms, you now have pay roll. In the immortal words of the SMU, you can't stop (and just preach the Word in this case) you got a payroll to meet. Seems the Word gets lost... Best sermons and services I ever went to were on the hood of HUM-V in the field, 17 minutes with sermon and sacraments. Those messages stuck.

---

Good points.

Reminds me of an a situation that the Episcopal Church got into.

They have their headquarters in New York...in an expensive building.

Yet as the Episcopal church basically implodes...they fought against calls to sell the building and move to a cheaper city and a cheaper headquarters.

Buildings and land in the end have a way of holding you down.

---

I get the intentions. Catholic Church is responsible for more Schools, Universities and Hospitals than any other organization. The business end and the Gospel is a tough reconciliation. I am 100% sure no Pastor, Bishop, Priest or any legit clergy enjoy standing there asking for money every week. My wife and I were rasied going to Church and would not miss (although I am guilty of being late and hearing about it). Many young people just say screw it.

How do Churches overcome that? Saying ignore it and go super Orthodox will create a vicious cycle of leaving and with the loyal believers dying off. It is an unsustainable model. Like it or not, there is a business part and just punting on those that don't listen is not a good idea. Think of it as the missions of the 21st century. Successful Missions worked with the groups they were converting.

I've been Catholic basically my whole life and have never heard a sermon on tithing.

The percentage of Americans who claim to have no religious affiliation, the so-called “Nones,” has increased from roughly 5% in 1990 to about 30% today (the percentage is higher among youth). “Nones” now comprise the single largest “religious” group in the country, ahead of…

— Father V (@father_rmv) April 3, 2023

Sam Lowry said:

---

I've been Catholic basically my whole life and have never heard a sermon on tithing.

---

In our Catholic Church I would estimate that 15% of the parishioners provide 85 % of the donations .

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

I've been Catholic basically my whole life and have never heard a sermon on tithing.

---

In our Catholic Church I would estimate that 15% of the parishioners provide 85 % of the donations .

---

I think that is pretty standard across lots of different organizations.

Churches
Synagogues
Universities
Museums
Etc.

Sam Lowry said:

---

I've been Catholic basically my whole life and have never heard a sermon on tithing.

---

Maybe they are smart enough to stay away from it in Texas. In Florida, if it is not Bishop's Appeal, some Mission, or tithing it is hitting up for sharing your talents.

I agree, I never heard about tithing until about 15 years ago. It seems, at least in the St Petersburg Diocese, they believe the Protestants got that part right...

We are all biased by our local influences. Glad to hear you are not hearing that.

Redbrickbear said:

---

The percentage of Americans who claim to have no religious affiliation, the so-called “Nones,” has increased from roughly 5% in 1990 to about 30% today (the percentage is higher among youth). “Nones” now comprise the single largest “religious” group in the country, ahead of…

— Father V (@father_rmv) April 3, 2023

---

We can all sit here and tell each other how wrong we are. Listen to this Board, there is no problem. Whenever someone brings up their experiences why things like this are happening, you get 15 reasons why your wrong. Yet, the numbers keep going like they are. But all is well...

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The Christian church needs to preach the Word. It is about Truth, not popularity. The churches in Africa are full.

---

The Word is not about beating people up or guilt. Jesus told parables and let people make up their own minds, he did not hammer those that showed up. He laid it out there and then were left to make up free will. Listen to the sermon at many of the services, rarely do they even discuss the readings. It is about the Bishop's Appeal, Guest Speaker from some Mission asking for money. I agree the Word would do well, it is the rest that drive people away.

It is not just one denomination, build an 8 acre site with Church, school, day care and 15 meeting rooms, you now have pay roll. In the immortal words of the SMU, you can't stop (and just preach the Word in this case) you got a payroll to meet. Seems the Word gets lost... Best sermons and services I ever went to were on the hood of HUM-V in the field, 17 minutes with sermon and sacraments. Those messages stuck.

---

The Gospel is ll about freedom from guilt. If you're being hammered, perhaps shop around for a new church.

I have no problem with a body of believers coming together to establish a church with a building and a school. I just don't see it as a profit making organization (Osteen & some other charlatans excepted).

One of my more memorable partaking of sacraments was Diet Coke and Ritz crackers on a beach

---

Well said.

In my experience, people use bitter or negative experiences as an excuse not to be a part of a body of believers. They have a negative experience or are told something they don't want to hear and they use it to hammer all churches and paint with a very broad brush .

My maternal grandfather was a hard, mean, and bitter man. Back in the 50's he was attending a church that told him he shouldn't be using spitting tobacco. For the rest of his life, he used that as an excuse to paint all Christians as judgmental and said he would never darken the doors of another church. He died a very bitter and lonely man, and I suspect I will never see him again. It's a shame the stumbling blocks that Satan will use to trip people up.

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people.

---

Yep.

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

---

I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.

By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

---

I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.

By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.

---

I agree with your statement that dogmas of the institutions are the issue as opposed to scripture itself. When we add requirements to salvation, among other things, we are twisting the gospel message.

As for Paul, what is your issue with him?

Reminder that the real religion of America is the Church of the United States, which draws on Christian and Jewish influences as well as expressing material interests of the regime, but it is ultimately an emergent phenomenon all its own, a gestalt.

— Blair Nathan (@Blair_A_Nathan) April 4, 2023

The problem is not just in the US

https://www.facebook.com/reel/892216725407984?mibextid=0NULKw&fs=e&s=TIeQ9V

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

---

I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.

By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.

---

I agree with your statement that dogmas of the institutions are the issue as opposed to scripture itself. When we add requirements to salvation, among other things, we are twisting the gospel message.

As for Paul, what is your issue with him?

---

Seems most of how Churches operate seem attributed to him and his letters. He was sort of a know it all that pushed his way to the adult table, even though there is no proof he saw Christ. Just not my favorite.

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

---

I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.

By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.

---

I agree with your statement that dogmas of the institutions are the issue as opposed to scripture itself. When we add requirements to salvation, among other things, we are twisting the gospel message.

As for Paul, what is your issue with him?

---

Seems most of how Churches operate seem attributed to him and his letters. He was sort of a know it all that pushed his way to the adult table, even though there is no proof he saw Christ. Just not my favorite.

---

Seems to me Paul's writings are consistent with Gospel teachings. As for what he saw, we only have the testimony of Mary and some others that Jesus rose from the dead.

I take it on faith.

Oldbear83 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

---

I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.

By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.

---

I agree with your statement that dogmas of the institutions are the issue as opposed to scripture itself. When we add requirements to salvation, among other things, we are twisting the gospel message.

As for Paul, what is your issue with him?

---

Seems most of how Churches operate seem attributed to him and his letters. He was sort of a know it all that pushed his way to the adult table, even though there is no proof he saw Christ. Just not my favorite.

---

Seems to me Paul's writings are consistent with Gospel teachings. As for what he saw, we only have the testimony of Mary and some others that Jesus rose from the dead.

I take it on faith.

---

We all have different parts that we like. I am partial to Mark over the other Gospels. Due to it being the earliest, my wife read Mathew. I thought Paul was a whiny know it all *****, preferred Peter. Such is human bias.

RMF5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

---

I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.

By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.

---

I agree with your statement that dogmas of the institutions are the issue as opposed to scripture itself. When we add requirements to salvation, among other things, we are twisting the gospel message.

As for Paul, what is your issue with him?

---

Seems most of how Churches operate seem attributed to him and his letters. He was sort of a know it all that pushed his way to the adult table, even though there is no proof he saw Christ. Just not my favorite.

---

Seems to me Paul's writings are consistent with Gospel teachings. As for what he saw, we only have the testimony of Mary and some others that Jesus rose from the dead.

I take it on faith.

---

We all have different parts that we like. I am partial to Mark over the other Gospels. Due to it being the earliest, my wife read Mathew. I thought Paul was a whiny know it all *****, preferred Peter. Such is human bias.

---

Seems like you should take the parts you agree with and the parts that make you uncomfortable, the whole counsel of God.

I like the part that says " ask and it shall be given." The rest, not so much. /s

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

---

I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.

By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.

---

I agree with your statement that dogmas of the institutions are the issue as opposed to scripture itself. When we add requirements to salvation, among other things, we are twisting the gospel message.

As for Paul, what is your issue with him?

---

Seems most of how Churches operate seem attributed to him and his letters. He was sort of a know it all that pushed his way to the adult table, even though there is no proof he saw Christ. Just not my favorite.

---

Seems to me Paul's writings are consistent with Gospel teachings. As for what he saw, we only have the testimony of Mary and some others that Jesus rose from the dead.

I take it on faith.

---

We all have different parts that we like. I am partial to Mark over the other Gospels. Due to it being the earliest, my wife read Mathew. I thought Paul was a whiny know it all *****, preferred Peter. Such is human bias.

---

Seems like you should take the parts you agree with and the parts that make you uncomfortable, the whole counsel of God.

---

Wise counsel. Hard to accept sometimes, but important to remember the road is narrow for a reason.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Corinthians 8:12

For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.


If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.

I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.

Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.

---

10% isn't a requirement for salvation

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money

---

It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.

It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.

When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.

Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.

---

Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirement

---

While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.

---

The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.

I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).

But it is all a matter of degrees:

I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.

My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!

I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.

Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...

---

What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.

---

I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.

By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.

---

I agree with your statement that dogmas of the institutions are the issue as opposed to scripture itself. When we add requirements to salvation, among other things, we are twisting the gospel message.

As for Paul, what is your issue with him?

---

Seems most of how Churches operate seem attributed to him and his letters. He was sort of a know it all that pushed his way to the adult table, even though there is no proof he saw Christ. Just not my favorite.

---

Seems to me Paul's writings are consistent with Gospel teachings. As for what he saw, we only have the testimony of Mary and some others that Jesus rose from the dead.

I take it on faith.

---

We all have different parts that we like. I am partial to Mark over the other Gospels. Due to it being the earliest, my wife read Mathew. I thought Paul was a whiny know it all *****, preferred Peter. Such is human bias.

---

Seems like you should take the parts you agree with and the parts that make you uncomfortable, the whole counsel of God.

---

Wise counsel. Hard to accept sometimes, but important to remember the road is narrow for a reason.

---

uh oh! That's the stuf that drives folks away. We need more warm fuzzies.