"Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession...Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Waco1947 said:

---

"Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

---

Nice quote. Does it mean you are starting to consider your sins Waco, and are ready to confess and turn from them?

Or is this just another attempt to hide from Scripture and Christ's clear teachings, so you can play some more with your idol and falsely accuse believers?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

---

Nice quote. Does it mean you are starting to consider your sins Waco, and are ready to confess and turn from them?

Or is this just another attempt to hide from Scripture and Christ's clear teachings, so you can play some more with your idol and falsely accuse believers?

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.
that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"
OLD B you simply refuse to answer to your sin of arrogance.
So confess now. Or continue to arrogant by the simply reason of birth into white America

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

---

Nice quote. Does it mean you are starting to consider your sins Waco, and are ready to confess and turn from them?

Or is this just another attempt to hide from Scripture and Christ's clear teachings, so you can play some more with your idol and falsely accuse believers?

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.
that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"
OLD B you simply refuse to answer to your sin of arrogance.
So confess now. Or continue to arrogant by the simply reason of birth into white America

---

Waco, you are an evil man, who will not turn from your wickedness.

I am done with you.

In the talk, Kingsnorth says that the West swallowed a poison pill with secular modernity. He says he used to believe in the contemporary Western classical liberal myth. No more:

Quote:

---

I became a Christian an Orthodox Christian in 2021, much to my own surprise and initial horror, after a very long search for truth. The subsequent immersion in the Christian story gave me a much clearer sense of what was happening around me in the 2020s. Most of all, they gave me an understanding of the sacred underpinning of human culture. Marx claimed that the history of all hitherto existing society was a history of class struggle, but it looks to me more like a history of religious belief. "Belief", in fact is the wrong word. A better one might be "experience", or "immersion".
The more I attended the divine liturgy, the more I realised that what I had once dismissed as silly superstition was in fact the stuff of life. In the the pre-modern West, as in much of the world today, there was no such thing as "religion". The Christian story was the basis of peoples' understanding of reality itself. There was no "religion", because there was no notion that this truth was somehow optional or partial, any more than we today might assume that gravity or the roundness of the Earth are facts we could choose to engage with only on Sunday mornings.
Again: everything is religious. The only people who believe otherwise, in fact, are a few people in what we liked to call our "secular" corner of the world. We once thought that by abolishing religion we had got ahead of the rest of the world. But suddenly, this story is being told less confidently. The wind has changed, and secular liberal modernity no longer looks like a good bet for winner of the End of History board game.
So if everything is religious, but our old religion is dead, and the thing we tried to replace it with rational, secular, humanist progress is failing because it doesn't meet real human needs, then where are we? What is coming next?

---

He believes that absent common belief in an order that both transcends the material world, and that is immanent within it, we are left with nothing but Will To Power. More:

Quote:

---

This, I think, is where we are today: the religious impulse is manifesting in material form, primarily through the use of technology to promote the human will. This phenomenon, which I like to call the Machine, is a material manifestation of the human desire for liberation through technology, in which all forms are dissolved in favour of the final and only sovereign: the independent rational individual, freed from the obligations of history, community and nature.
In the Orthodox Christian worldview, all of us are icons of God. Humanity was made in the image of the creator, and even though we endlessly fail to live up to this responsibility, it gives us a clear point of reference. We know what humans are, and what the world is for. Once that story goes, what is the still point of the turning world? Nobody can agree. The only reference point in the post-Christian, post-liberal West is whatever we happen to want or feel. And since consumer liberalism has taught us that desire is not something to be transcended or controlled, but something to be surrendered to immediately and then valorised, reality itself becomes open to endless redefinition. Who's to say what's right or wrong or real?
But let's go back to our founding story again: back to the garden. What does our current state look like from that perspective? To me it looks simple enough, and I think it would have done to a citizen of Western Christendom too. We are following the path of the snake rather than the path of the creator. This is hardly a new development: the Bible is effectively an 80-book warning against it, and most other religions have their own cautionary tales. Once you reject God, you are fated to try and replace him.
This is where our path is now leading us, and it is, I think, the main reason that the waters of age seem so disturbed. Transhumanism, artificial intelligence, the "transcending" of everything from gender to biology, the growing of food and babies in labs: openly now, we seek to break all given limits, remake nature, build the world anew. We seek to become gods. The people who are building our new digital Tower of Babel are very open about what they are up to. If you don't believe me, let them explain it for themselves.

---

And:

Quote:

---

We are consciously making ourselves post-human, even as we strive to make the world post-natural and post-wild. If the age you live in is starting to take on the flavour of a war over the very meaning of reality itself which is to say, a religious war well, that's because it is.
What, in this world, can we possibly "conserve"? Nothing. In a culture which does not agree that nature exists, or that we have some basic, shared assumptions about reality, the question barely even makes sense. The challenge now is not to ask what we can "conserve" or "restore". We have to go much further back. We have to dig down to the foundations.

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist: 'I don't think Christians in the ancient world were anymore compassionate than those of today"

Were that true, Christianity would never have seen the surge in popularity it had during the first two centuries of its existence, despite intense Roman persecution.

What do you believe led to Christianity's fast growth, if not for its charity and compassion?

---

It gave hope of an afterlife in paradise, and Paul's version promoted it to be available to the gentiles. BTW the intensity of Roman persecution is questionable. I never said the concept of compassion had nothing to do with Christian growth.

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

It's funny how the religious minded often have the most trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong i.e. Ginni and Clarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Catholic Clergy, Southern Baptist administration, Jerry Falwell, Jr., many posters on this board etc.

---

Cool story bro!

You do realize that Christians are not to worshipClarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell et al ? You speaking to the failures of men does nothing but support what scripture tells us. Should I take this as an indicator that you are returning to the Christian faith?

---

I realize most Christians don't worship them. They're just prominent examples that Christians have trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong. Scripture is written by primitive people who had the same problem.

---

The world of antiquity was only primitive in the sense that it didn't particularly value forgiveness or compassion. Christianity changed that. You have most of your ideas about right and wrong because you were able to borrow them from religion.

---

The notion of right and wrong came from humans trying to sort out justice and equity. Religion probably, at least in part, grew out of that notion. Hammurabi code was around way before Judaism and Christianity. Christianity gives lip service to forgiveness and compassion from one side of the mouth. Paul's version of Christianity is quite different from Peter's or even Jesus'.

---

Forgiveness and compassion weren't held up as ideals in the ancient world. There would have been no reason for Christianity to pay lip service to them.

---

Socrates.

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

It's funny how the religious minded often have the most trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong i.e. Ginni and Clarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Catholic Clergy, Southern Baptist administration, Jerry Falwell, Jr., many posters on this board etc.

---

Cool story bro!

You do realize that Christians are not to worshipClarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell et al ? You speaking to the failures of men does nothing but support what scripture tells us. Should I take this as an indicator that you are returning to the Christian faith?

---

I realize most Christians don't worship them. They're just prominent examples that Christians have trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong. Scripture is written by primitive people who had the same problem.

---

The world of antiquity was only primitive in the sense that it didn't particularly value forgiveness or compassion. Christianity changed that. You have most of your ideas about right and wrong because you were able to borrow them from religion.

---

It was primitive in its fundamental understanding of the universe, including morals and forgiveness. There is nothing in the Christian tenets that reveals or give us any fundamental understanding of the universe. The best you can say is that, early on, the Church, because that is where education occurred, supported to a degree scientific investigation. At least until the findings conflicted with doctrine of the moment.

Redbrickbear said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Quote:

---

Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

---

Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

---

Nope. I don't believe in your made up friend. Nor his made up an enemy.

---

Your logic fails in a manner similar to the grammar in your last post.

But to the point, quash. Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Make believe does not exist. No gods, no devils. You'll have to find a new way to deal with evil.

Maybe stop seeing it everywhere except under your nose.

---

If God and the devil don't exist then evil does not exist.

"Evil can only be understood as part of or in relationship to God's larger plans for the cosmos….Evil as the privation or negation of the good, so that evil is only evil set against the greater good."

---

In a religious perspective, good and evil are different depending upon the religion. Religions are cultural. The concept of good and evil varies between human cultures, as determined within that culture.

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Quote:

---

Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

---

Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

---

Nope. I don't believe in your made up friend. Nor his made up an enemy.

---

Your logic fails in a manner similar to the grammar in your last post.

But to the point, quash. Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Make believe does not exist. No gods, no devils. You'll have to find a new way to deal with evil.

Maybe stop seeing it everywhere except under your nose.

---

Well gosh, your opinion somehow fails to prove anything.

And I notice you didn't answer the questions, so once again:

Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Its definition is a function of culture.

The Archbishop of St. Louis will close 35 parishes and reassign 155 priests in the most sweeping reorganization of the Catholic church in St. Louis history. https://t.co/JtLJzoOL4G

— Father V (@father_rmv) May 28, 2023

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist: 'I don't think Christians in the ancient world were anymore compassionate than those of today"

Were that true, Christianity would never have seen the surge in popularity it had during the first two centuries of its existence, despite intense Roman persecution.

What do you believe led to Christianity's fast growth, if not for its charity and compassion?

---

It gave hope of an afterlife in paradise, and Paul's version promoted it to be available to the gentiles. BTW the intensity of Roman persecution is questionable. I never said the concept of compassion had nothing to do with Christian growth.

---

You wrote that ancient Christians were no more compassionate than those of today.

That aligns with claiming compassion had no part in Christianity's appeal.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Quote:

---

Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

---

Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

---

Nope. I don't believe in your made up friend. Nor his made up an enemy.

---

Your logic fails in a manner similar to the grammar in your last post.

But to the point, quash. Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Make believe does not exist. No gods, no devils. You'll have to find a new way to deal with evil.

Maybe stop seeing it everywhere except under your nose.

---

Well gosh, your opinion somehow fails to prove anything.

And I notice you didn't answer the questions, so once again:

Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Its definition is a function of culture.

---

Your refusal to give a straight answer, is telling in itself, TS.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist: 'I don't think Christians in the ancient world were anymore compassionate than those of today"

Were that true, Christianity would never have seen the surge in popularity it had during the first two centuries of its existence, despite intense Roman persecution.

What do you believe led to Christianity's fast growth, if not for its charity and compassion?

---

It gave hope of an afterlife in paradise, and Paul's version promoted it to be available to the gentiles. BTW the intensity of Roman persecution is questionable. I never said the concept of compassion had nothing to do with Christian growth.

---

What a clown show!

How often have we read TXSciGuy go on about the crusades and such and all the evil but, when the subject is Roman persecution of Early Christians, it's "questionable ".

TexasScientist: 'I don't think Christians in the ancient world were anymore compassionate than those of today"

Charity
Basic education
Higher education
Biggest force in ending slavery
Creation of scientific discovery
Elevated women
Elevated children
Elevated marriage and sexuality
Hospitals
Foster care and adoption

That compassion drove a lot of the world forward.

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

It's funny how the religious minded often have the most trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong i.e. Ginni and Clarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Catholic Clergy, Southern Baptist administration, Jerry Falwell, Jr., many posters on this board etc.

---

Cool story bro!

You do realize that Christians are not to worshipClarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell et al ? You speaking to the failures of men does nothing but support what scripture tells us. Should I take this as an indicator that you are returning to the Christian faith?

---

I realize most Christians don't worship them. They're just prominent examples that Christians have trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong. Scripture is written by primitive people who had the same problem.

---

The world of antiquity was only primitive in the sense that it didn't particularly value forgiveness or compassion. Christianity changed that. You have most of your ideas about right and wrong because you were able to borrow them from religion.

---

It was primitive in its fundamental understanding of the universe, including morals and forgiveness. There is nothing in the Christian tenets that reveals or give us any fundamental understanding of the universe. The best you can say is that, early on, the Church, because that is where education occurred, supported to a degree scientific investigation. At least until the findings conflicted with doctrine of the moment.

---

Seeking to understand the universe without understanding ourselves is both futile and gravely dangerous.

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

It's funny how the religious minded often have the most trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong i.e. Ginni and Clarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Catholic Clergy, Southern Baptist administration, Jerry Falwell, Jr., many posters on this board etc.

---

Cool story bro!

You do realize that Christians are not to worshipClarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell et al ? You speaking to the failures of men does nothing but support what scripture tells us. Should I take this as an indicator that you are returning to the Christian faith?

---

I realize most Christians don't worship them. They're just prominent examples that Christians have trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong. Scripture is written by primitive people who had the same problem.

---

The world of antiquity was only primitive in the sense that it didn't particularly value forgiveness or compassion. Christianity changed that. You have most of your ideas about right and wrong because you were able to borrow them from religion.

---

The notion of right and wrong came from humans trying to sort out justice and equity. Religion probably, at least in part, grew out of that notion. Hammurabi code was around way before Judaism and Christianity. Christianity gives lip service to forgiveness and compassion from one side of the mouth. Paul's version of Christianity is quite different from Peter's or even Jesus'.

---

Forgiveness and compassion weren't held up as ideals in the ancient world. There would have been no reason for Christianity to pay lip service to them.

---

Socrates.

---

Not highly valued by the society of his time.

Waco1947 said:

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

Are you now; or ever have been homophobic and/or racist ?

You possess a lot of hatefulness toward many people.

Maybe it is time to let it go.

KaiBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

Are you now; or ever have been homophobic and/or racist ?

You possess a lot of hatefulness toward many people.

Maybe it is time to let it go.

---

Well said.

Oldbear83 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

Are you now; or ever have been homophobic and/or racist ?

You possess a lot of hatefulness toward many people.

Maybe it is time to let it go.

---

Well said.

---

yep. poster child for leftist bigotry - there is no moral basis to disagree with them, so do so at your peril.

KaiBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

Are you now; or ever have been homophobic and/or racist ?

You possess a lot of hatefulness toward many people.

Maybe it is time to let it go.

---

we'll answer my question? You're avoiding the truth about yourself

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

Are you now; or ever have been homophobic and/or racist ?

You possess a lot of hatefulness toward many people.

Maybe it is time to let it go.

---

Well said.

---

yep. poster child for leftist bigotry - there is no moral basis to disagree with them, so do so at your peril.

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

Waco1947 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

Are you now; or ever have been homophobic and/or racist ?

You possess a lot of hatefulness toward many people.

Maybe it is time to let it go.

---

we'll answer my question? You're avoiding the truth about yourself

---

You are so full of hate .

What caused it ?

Waco1947 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

Are you now; or ever have been homophobic and/or racist ?

You possess a lot of hatefulness toward many people.

Maybe it is time to let it go.

---

Well said.

---

yep. poster child for leftist bigotry - there is no moral basis to disagree with them, so do so at your peril.

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

LOL It's like his stylus is caught on a scratch in the internet....."arrogance <hiss> ignorance <hiss> white Christian.....arrogance <hiss> ignorance <hiss> white Christian....arrogance <hiss>....."

Could it be we have a bona fide BOT in our midst?

KaiBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Are you so blind you refuse to consider your own arrogance and apparent ignorance.

that y9ou know that that you are white, USA born, and have (had) Christian arrogance. Are you aware?"

---

Are you now; or ever have been homophobic and/or racist ?

You possess a lot of hatefulness toward many people.

Maybe it is time to let it go.

---

we'll answer my question? You're avoiding the truth about yourself

---

You are so full of hate .

What caused it ?

---

Oh please! That's silly.
Can you not admit you were born white in the USA and it colors your theology?

[Here in the West, our conventional wisdom holds that the church is on its last legs. Christians will be a minority by 2070. "Christian values" are an anachronism. We are on the cusp of a new age: an age of freedom, of tolerance, of unbelief. This is the end of history.]

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/3644560-christians-in-the-us-may-become-a-minority-group-by-2070-report-says/

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Quote:

---

Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

---

Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

---

Nope. I don't believe in your made up friend. Nor his made up an enemy.

---

Your logic fails in a manner similar to the grammar in your last post.

But to the point, quash. Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Make believe does not exist. No gods, no devils. You'll have to find a new way to deal with evil.

Maybe stop seeing it everywhere except under your nose.

---

Well gosh, your opinion somehow fails to prove anything.

And I notice you didn't answer the questions, so once again:

Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Define evil and I'll be glad to answer. I've already seen one definition that relies on superstition so that one is right out.

---

Still ducking, I see.

---

Can't have a real discussion without defining terms. You can define evil and I'll discuss it with you.

Or you can continue the path of "the accusation is the admission".

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Quote:

---

Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

---

Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

---

Nope. I don't believe in your made up friend. Nor his made up an enemy.

---

Your logic fails in a manner similar to the grammar in your last post.

But to the point, quash. Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Make believe does not exist. No gods, no devils. You'll have to find a new way to deal with evil.

Maybe stop seeing it everywhere except under your nose.

---

Well gosh, your opinion somehow fails to prove anything.

And I notice you didn't answer the questions, so once again:

Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

---

Define evil and I'll be glad to answer. I've already seen one definition that relies on superstition so that one is right out.

---

Still ducking, I see.

---

Can't have a real discussion without defining terms. You can define evil and I'll discuss it with you.

Or you can continue the path of "the accusation is the admission".

---

So nothing strikes you as a good act or an evil act?

Well, let's get help from Merriam-Webster, shall we?

"evil adjective (-vl )
British often and US sometimes -()vil

1a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED
an evil impulse

1b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct
a person of evil reputation

2a archaic : INFERIOR
2b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE
an evil odor
2c: DISAGREEABLE
woke late and in an evil temper


3a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS
the evil institution of slavery

3b: marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY"


So, how about definitions 1a and 3a.

Do you agree evil exists as so defined?

Now let's look at good:

"good adjective (gud )

1a(1) : of a favorable character or tendency
good news

(2): BOUNTIFUL, FERTILE
good land

(3): HANDSOME, ATTRACTIVE
good looks

b(1): SUITABLE, FIT
good to eat

(2): free from injury or disease
one good arm

(3): not depreciated
bad money drives out good

(4): commercially sound
a good risk

(5): that can be relied on
good for another year

(6): PROFITABLE, ADVANTAGEOUS
made a very good deal

c(1): AGREEABLE, PLEASANT
had a good time

(2): SALUTARY, WHOLESOME
good for a cold

(3): AMUSING, CLEVER
a good joke

d(1): of a noticeably large size or quantity : CONSIDERABLE
won by a good margin

(2): FULL
waited a good hour

(3) used as a word that gives force or emphasis to a statement
a good many of us

e(1) : WELL-FOUNDED, COGENT
good reasons

(2): TRUE
holds good for society at large

(3): deserving of respect : HONORABLE
in good standing

(4): legally valid or effectual
good title

f(1): ADEQUATE, SATISFACTORY
good care

(2): conforming to a standard
good English

(3): liking only things that are of good quality : CHOICE, DISCRIMINATING
good taste

(4): containing less fat and being less tender than higher grades
used of meat and especially of beef
g sports
(1)of a serve or shot : landing in the proper area of the court in tennis and similar games
The serve was good.

(2)of a shot or kick : successfully done
(basketball) The first foul shot was good but she missed the second one.

(American football) The kick was good from 45 yards.

The kick was no good. [=was missed]

2a(1): VIRTUOUS, RIGHT, COMMENDABLE
a good person

good conduct

(2): KIND, BENEVOLENT
good intentions

b: UPPER-CLASS
a good family

c: COMPETENT, SKILLFUL
a good doctor

d(1): LOYAL
a good party man

a good Catholic

(2): CLOSE
a good friend

e: free from infirmity or sorrow
I feel good"


Here I would submit definition 2a(1), a virtuous or commendable quality.

Now with those definitions, do you agree or deny the existence of evil and good?

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist: 'I don't think Christians in the ancient world were anymore compassionate than those of today"

Were that true, Christianity would never have seen the surge in popularity it had during the first two centuries of its existence, despite intense Roman persecution.

What do you believe led to Christianity's fast growth, if not for its charity and compassion?

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It gave hope of an afterlife in paradise, and Paul's version promoted it to be available to the gentiles. BTW the intensity of Roman persecution is questionable. I never said the concept of compassion had nothing to do with Christian growth.

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You wrote that ancient Christians were no more compassionate than those of today.

That aligns with claiming compassion had no part in Christianity's appeal.

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So you believe Christians are less compassionate today, and therefore less appealing?

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Quote:

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Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

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Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

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Nope. I don't believe in your made up friend. Nor his made up an enemy.

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Your logic fails in a manner similar to the grammar in your last post.

But to the point, quash. Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

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Make believe does not exist. No gods, no devils. You'll have to find a new way to deal with evil.

Maybe stop seeing it everywhere except under your nose.

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Well gosh, your opinion somehow fails to prove anything.

And I notice you didn't answer the questions, so once again:

Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

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Its definition is a function of culture.

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Your refusal to give a straight answer, is telling in itself, TS.

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You have to be able to recognize a straight answer.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist: 'I don't think Christians in the ancient world were anymore compassionate than those of today"

Were that true, Christianity would never have seen the surge in popularity it had during the first two centuries of its existence, despite intense Roman persecution.

What do you believe led to Christianity's fast growth, if not for its charity and compassion?

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It gave hope of an afterlife in paradise, and Paul's version promoted it to be available to the gentiles. BTW the intensity of Roman persecution is questionable. I never said the concept of compassion had nothing to do with Christian growth.

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You wrote that ancient Christians were no more compassionate than those of today.

That aligns with claiming compassion had no part in Christianity's appeal.

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So you believe Christians are less compassionate today, and therefore less appealing?

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Nope, I was simply working off your words and implied argument.

Now as then, there are fakers and hypocrites who claim to love Christ but do not live as believers, and there are others who believe and try to live as Christ taught.

One important difference between Science and Faith, is that living in Faith accepts we will fail and fall from time to time, so success is judged over a much longer time frame and a literally ancient promise from God, while Science is always changing, discarding failures as worthless and cheering those who win.

So the Christian carries compassion with him, not in the belief he is good but because we all are in need of that compassion, and we need compassion in order to get up when we fall, and to help our brothers get up when they fall.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Quote:

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Oldbear83 said:
But pretending Sin is not the problem is a fatal mistake.

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Quash:
LOL.


I see you are channeling your inner Satan again, Quash.

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Nope. I don't believe in your made up friend. Nor his made up an enemy.

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Your logic fails in a manner similar to the grammar in your last post.

But to the point, quash. Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

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Make believe does not exist. No gods, no devils. You'll have to find a new way to deal with evil.

Maybe stop seeing it everywhere except under your nose.

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Well gosh, your opinion somehow fails to prove anything.

And I notice you didn't answer the questions, so once again:

Do you contend that evil does not exist? That good is not real?

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Its definition is a function of culture.

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Your refusal to give a straight answer, is telling in itself, TS.

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You have to be able to recognize a straight answer.

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I certainly do. And I know your tactics very well after all this time, TS.

Sam Lowry said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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TexasScientist said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TexasScientist said:

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It's funny how the religious minded often have the most trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong i.e. Ginni and Clarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Catholic Clergy, Southern Baptist administration, Jerry Falwell, Jr., many posters on this board etc.

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Cool story bro!

You do realize that Christians are not to worshipClarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell et al ? You speaking to the failures of men does nothing but support what scripture tells us. Should I take this as an indicator that you are returning to the Christian faith?

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I realize most Christians don't worship them. They're just prominent examples that Christians have trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong. Scripture is written by primitive people who had the same problem.

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The world of antiquity was only primitive in the sense that it didn't particularly value forgiveness or compassion. Christianity changed that. You have most of your ideas about right and wrong because you were able to borrow them from religion.

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It was primitive in its fundamental understanding of the universe, including morals and forgiveness. There is nothing in the Christian tenets that reveals or give us any fundamental understanding of the universe. The best you can say is that, early on, the Church, because that is where education occurred, supported to a degree scientific investigation. At least until the findings conflicted with doctrine of the moment.

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Seeking to understand the universe without understanding ourselves is both futile and gravely dangerous.

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And science is the key to understanding and to avoid danger.

Sam Lowry said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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TexasScientist said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TexasScientist said:

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It's funny how the religious minded often have the most trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong i.e. Ginni and Clarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Catholic Clergy, Southern Baptist administration, Jerry Falwell, Jr., many posters on this board etc.

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Cool story bro!

You do realize that Christians are not to worshipClarence Thomas, Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell et al ? You speaking to the failures of men does nothing but support what scripture tells us. Should I take this as an indicator that you are returning to the Christian faith?

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I realize most Christians don't worship them. They're just prominent examples that Christians have trouble recognizing harm and distinguishing right from wrong. Scripture is written by primitive people who had the same problem.

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The world of antiquity was only primitive in the sense that it didn't particularly value forgiveness or compassion. Christianity changed that. You have most of your ideas about right and wrong because you were able to borrow them from religion.

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The notion of right and wrong came from humans trying to sort out justice and equity. Religion probably, at least in part, grew out of that notion. Hammurabi code was around way before Judaism and Christianity. Christianity gives lip service to forgiveness and compassion from one side of the mouth. Paul's version of Christianity is quite different from Peter's or even Jesus'.

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Forgiveness and compassion weren't held up as ideals in the ancient world. There would have been no reason for Christianity to pay lip service to them.

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Socrates.

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Not highly valued by the society of his time.

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No more or less than when Christianity first started through the present.