Federal Judge blocks Trump from deporting illegal alien gang members

212,408 Views | 2534 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Assassin
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

your ability to just make things up to fit your case is indeed amusing. Here's the INA section on acquistion/transmission of citizenship:

Chapter 3 - U.S. Citizens at Birth (INA 301 and 309)
A. General Requirements for Acquisition of Citizenship at Birth
A person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen at birth, to include a child born to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe.

That definition of that phrase in bold has NOT been ruled upon by SCOTUS.
Neither is it further delineated in that section of the INA.

Trump is going to force the court to define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." It is hardly unreasonable to believe that the phrase has no meaning if it includes everyone who happens to be standing within the physical boundaries of US borders (regardless of their citizenship status in another country).


Just make things up is what you're hoping the Court will do. What you're trying to say is that they have never held on the issue. I doubt they've ever held that Christianity is a religion within the meaning of the First Amendment, either, but they have always made decisions on that basis. Those decisions are part of the law.

Congress didn't need to define every term in the statute. They understood jurisdiction according to its ordinary public meaning at the time, which was that children born to illegal immigrants were under US jurisdiction. We know this because those children had been recognized as citizens for nearly a quarter-century (ever since Congress passed the Undesirable Aliens Act and created unlawful immigrant status as we know it) before the INA was passed.

As for citizenship status in another country, Wong Kim Ark addressed that directly. "Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States."

..because they were here LEGALLY. Wong Kim Ark did NOT address the US born children of illegal aliens.....per classroom instruction given by that bastion of the MAGA movement known as the US Department of State.

Now, if I had to bet $20, I would plunk it down on the square that says "Trump loses this case." But I suspect you will not see them base it on the reasoning you use. I suspect they will cite decades of bureaucratic tradition as de facto law. (which will allow Congress to address the issue via statute).

Because they were here, period. That is the essence of jurisdiction.

Congress cannot take away what the Constitution provides. See again Wong Kim Ark: The power of naturalization, vested in Congress by the Constitution, is a power to confer citizenship, not a power to take it away. "A naturalized citizen," said Chief Justice Marshall,

"becomes a member of the society, possessing all the rights of a native citizen, and standing, in the view of the Constitution, on the footing of a native. The Constitution does not authorize Congress to enlarge or abridge those rights. The simple power of the National Legislature is to prescribe a uniform rule of naturalization, and the exercise of this power exhausts it so far as respects the individual. The Constitution then takes him up, and, among other rights, extends to him the capacity of suing in the courts of the United States, precisely under the same circumstances under which a native might sue."

Osborn v. United States Bank, 9 Wheat. 738, 22 U. S. 827. Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.


If that were the true, it would not be legal for ICE to deny entry to an arriving visitor and put them on the next plane home. We would have to admit them, incarcerate them, then deport them...."because they are here." We don't do that because they are not under the jurisdiction of the USA until an official of the USG puts and arrival stamp in their passport.

And the word "naturalized" does not mean what your argument imputes. A person who acquires citizenship at birth is a "natural born" US citizen (born in the jurisdiction of USA). The term "naturalized" applies to a citizen of another country who satisfied statutory requirements to become a US citizen. (again, a simple concept straight from USG training on consular affairs).




Arriving visitors are not here, as a matter of law. Illegal immigrants are here, albeit unlawfully. I suspect you're conflating the two, but they are different and distinct concepts.

The argument isn't really about naturalized citizens. It's about birthright citizens, to whom the same reasoning applies a fortiori:

Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.
Assassin
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historian
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Inciting violence is a crime. If all the fascist politicians, celebrities, & other crazies were arrested & prosecuted for this they would soon stop doing it. Eventually the violence itself might stop or reduce.

Personally, I think there should be a stronger presence when one of these mass ICE events takes place: if the police, National Guard, or Marines were there in numbers then the fascist mobs would be less likely to attack. And if they did, they could be arrested.

It's obvious: if the govt wants to reduce crime, they must enforce the laws, sometimes with more determination. The fascists did much damage with their defunding police forces and fake president Biden's open borders. It will require time to repair their damage & clean up their mess.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
ScottS
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Democrats need the illegals. They need to stop ICE. Illegals get counted in the census so its their way of keeping numbers in blue states as regular citizens exit blue states. Without this the blue states would lose too much representation.
historian
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The fascists want the illegals because they exploit them for many different things, especially stealing elections.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Assassin
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historian said:

The fascists want the illegals because they exploit them for many different things, especially stealing elections.

And to change the number of seats in the House
historian
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Yes. That's another way they exploit illegals to gain power for themselves.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Yogi
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Back around 2008, they discovered a ploy in the El Paso area whereby undocumented people were standing in and voting for dead or inactive citizens on the voter rolls.

I guess that's why they also hate Voter ID laws.
Yogi
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I do have to credit the Democrats' ability to somehow assimilate unregulated immigration with feigned concern for indigenous peoples and cultural misappropropiation.

I guess whatever is politically expedient or that you believe to be completely in conflict with the beliefs of people you hate.
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

your ability to just make things up to fit your case is indeed amusing. Here's the INA section on acquistion/transmission of citizenship:

Chapter 3 - U.S. Citizens at Birth (INA 301 and 309)
A. General Requirements for Acquisition of Citizenship at Birth
A person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen at birth, to include a child born to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe.

That definition of that phrase in bold has NOT been ruled upon by SCOTUS.
Neither is it further delineated in that section of the INA.

Trump is going to force the court to define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." It is hardly unreasonable to believe that the phrase has no meaning if it includes everyone who happens to be standing within the physical boundaries of US borders (regardless of their citizenship status in another country).


Just make things up is what you're hoping the Court will do. What you're trying to say is that they have never held on the issue. I doubt they've ever held that Christianity is a religion within the meaning of the First Amendment, either, but they have always made decisions on that basis. Those decisions are part of the law.

Congress didn't need to define every term in the statute. They understood jurisdiction according to its ordinary public meaning at the time, which was that children born to illegal immigrants were under US jurisdiction. We know this because those children had been recognized as citizens for nearly a quarter-century (ever since Congress passed the Undesirable Aliens Act and created unlawful immigrant status as we know it) before the INA was passed.

As for citizenship status in another country, Wong Kim Ark addressed that directly. "Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States."

..because they were here LEGALLY. Wong Kim Ark did NOT address the US born children of illegal aliens.....per classroom instruction given by that bastion of the MAGA movement known as the US Department of State.

Now, if I had to bet $20, I would plunk it down on the square that says "Trump loses this case." But I suspect you will not see them base it on the reasoning you use. I suspect they will cite decades of bureaucratic tradition as de facto law. (which will allow Congress to address the issue via statute).

Because they were here, period. That is the essence of jurisdiction.

Congress cannot take away what the Constitution provides. See again Wong Kim Ark: The power of naturalization, vested in Congress by the Constitution, is a power to confer citizenship, not a power to take it away. "A naturalized citizen," said Chief Justice Marshall,

"becomes a member of the society, possessing all the rights of a native citizen, and standing, in the view of the Constitution, on the footing of a native. The Constitution does not authorize Congress to enlarge or abridge those rights. The simple power of the National Legislature is to prescribe a uniform rule of naturalization, and the exercise of this power exhausts it so far as respects the individual. The Constitution then takes him up, and, among other rights, extends to him the capacity of suing in the courts of the United States, precisely under the same circumstances under which a native might sue."

Osborn v. United States Bank, 9 Wheat. 738, 22 U. S. 827. Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.


If that were the true, it would not be legal for ICE to deny entry to an arriving visitor and put them on the next plane home. We would have to admit them, incarcerate them, then deport them...."because they are here." We don't do that because they are not under the jurisdiction of the USA until an official of the USG puts and arrival stamp in their passport.

And the word "naturalized" does not mean what your argument imputes. A person who acquires citizenship at birth is a "natural born" US citizen (born in the jurisdiction of USA). The term "naturalized" applies to a citizen of another country who satisfied statutory requirements to become a US citizen. (again, a simple concept straight from USG training on consular affairs).




Arriving visitors are not here, as a matter of law. Illegal immigrants are here, albeit unlawfully. I suspect you're conflating the two, but they are different and distinct concepts.
Courts have not ruled on that.

The argument isn't really about naturalized citizens. It's about birthright citizens, to whom the same reasoning applies a fortiori:

Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.
This does not specifically address those born here to persons here illegally..

Again, your argument rests entirely upon precedence established by a substantial body of regulatory interpretation in effect for several decades, NOT in statute or court ruling. If we can get to where we are via regulatory discretion, we should be able to get out of where we are via regulatory discretion.

I doubt this court will overturn the current body of regulatory law, but it is not out of the question, because as a plain matter of meaning, it makes no sense that we should reward illegal immigration with citizenship, and there is most certainly a disconnect between the way we handle people who arrive on our soil at ports of entry and people who do not. WHY IS ONE CONSIDERED TO NOT BE UNDER OUR JURISDICTION, AND THE OTHER NOT? Both are on our soil. Neither have been legally admitted.

The American people are very clear in opposition to the status quo. Public opinion is not supposed to matter in court. But it does hang heavy in the air from time to time.
whiterock
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Assassin said:

historian said:

The fascists want the illegals because they exploit them for many different things, especially stealing elections.

And to change the number of seats in the House

has already given Democrats and extra 15-25 seats in the House.
gtownbear
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Off the subject, but something pleasant to begin your day with. Love this kid's spirit and mechanical knowledge at such a young age. There is hope. Way to go young man!

Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

your ability to just make things up to fit your case is indeed amusing. Here's the INA section on acquistion/transmission of citizenship:

Chapter 3 - U.S. Citizens at Birth (INA 301 and 309)
A. General Requirements for Acquisition of Citizenship at Birth
A person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen at birth, to include a child born to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe.

That definition of that phrase in bold has NOT been ruled upon by SCOTUS.
Neither is it further delineated in that section of the INA.

Trump is going to force the court to define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." It is hardly unreasonable to believe that the phrase has no meaning if it includes everyone who happens to be standing within the physical boundaries of US borders (regardless of their citizenship status in another country).


Just make things up is what you're hoping the Court will do. What you're trying to say is that they have never held on the issue. I doubt they've ever held that Christianity is a religion within the meaning of the First Amendment, either, but they have always made decisions on that basis. Those decisions are part of the law.

Congress didn't need to define every term in the statute. They understood jurisdiction according to its ordinary public meaning at the time, which was that children born to illegal immigrants were under US jurisdiction. We know this because those children had been recognized as citizens for nearly a quarter-century (ever since Congress passed the Undesirable Aliens Act and created unlawful immigrant status as we know it) before the INA was passed.

As for citizenship status in another country, Wong Kim Ark addressed that directly. "Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States."

..because they were here LEGALLY. Wong Kim Ark did NOT address the US born children of illegal aliens.....per classroom instruction given by that bastion of the MAGA movement known as the US Department of State.

Now, if I had to bet $20, I would plunk it down on the square that says "Trump loses this case." But I suspect you will not see them base it on the reasoning you use. I suspect they will cite decades of bureaucratic tradition as de facto law. (which will allow Congress to address the issue via statute).

Because they were here, period. That is the essence of jurisdiction.

Congress cannot take away what the Constitution provides. See again Wong Kim Ark: The power of naturalization, vested in Congress by the Constitution, is a power to confer citizenship, not a power to take it away. "A naturalized citizen," said Chief Justice Marshall,

"becomes a member of the society, possessing all the rights of a native citizen, and standing, in the view of the Constitution, on the footing of a native. The Constitution does not authorize Congress to enlarge or abridge those rights. The simple power of the National Legislature is to prescribe a uniform rule of naturalization, and the exercise of this power exhausts it so far as respects the individual. The Constitution then takes him up, and, among other rights, extends to him the capacity of suing in the courts of the United States, precisely under the same circumstances under which a native might sue."

Osborn v. United States Bank, 9 Wheat. 738, 22 U. S. 827. Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.


If that were the true, it would not be legal for ICE to deny entry to an arriving visitor and put them on the next plane home. We would have to admit them, incarcerate them, then deport them...."because they are here." We don't do that because they are not under the jurisdiction of the USA until an official of the USG puts and arrival stamp in their passport.

And the word "naturalized" does not mean what your argument imputes. A person who acquires citizenship at birth is a "natural born" US citizen (born in the jurisdiction of USA). The term "naturalized" applies to a citizen of another country who satisfied statutory requirements to become a US citizen. (again, a simple concept straight from USG training on consular affairs).




Arriving visitors are not here, as a matter of law. Illegal immigrants are here, albeit unlawfully. I suspect you're conflating the two, but they are different and distinct concepts.
Courts have not ruled on that.

The argument isn't really about naturalized citizens. It's about birthright citizens, to whom the same reasoning applies a fortiori:

Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.
This does not specifically address those born here to persons here illegally..

Again, your argument rests entirely upon precedence established by a substantial body of regulatory interpretation in effect for several decades, NOT in statute or court ruling. If we can get to where we are via regulatory discretion, we should be able to get out of where we are via regulatory discretion.

I doubt this court will overturn the current body of regulatory law, but it is not out of the question, because as a plain matter of meaning, it makes no sense that we should reward illegal immigration with citizenship, and there is most certainly a disconnect between the way we handle people who arrive on our soil at ports of entry and people who do not. WHY IS ONE CONSIDERED TO NOT BE UNDER OUR JURISDICTION, AND THE OTHER NOT? Both are on our soil. Neither have been legally admitted.

The American people are very clear in opposition to the status quo. Public opinion is not supposed to matter in court. But it does hang heavy in the air from time to time.

The point is, to the extent there is any issue with persons born here to illegals, Congress has no authority to resolve it. Much less is it a matter of regulatory discretion. Constitutional issues are decided by the courts.
Oldbear83
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Sam doesn't want Trump to do his job.


Now Sam says Congress can't do it either.

Sam has a serious judge fetish problem.
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

your ability to just make things up to fit your case is indeed amusing. Here's the INA section on acquistion/transmission of citizenship:

Chapter 3 - U.S. Citizens at Birth (INA 301 and 309)
A. General Requirements for Acquisition of Citizenship at Birth
A person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen at birth, to include a child born to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe.

That definition of that phrase in bold has NOT been ruled upon by SCOTUS.
Neither is it further delineated in that section of the INA.

Trump is going to force the court to define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." It is hardly unreasonable to believe that the phrase has no meaning if it includes everyone who happens to be standing within the physical boundaries of US borders (regardless of their citizenship status in another country).


Just make things up is what you're hoping the Court will do. What you're trying to say is that they have never held on the issue. I doubt they've ever held that Christianity is a religion within the meaning of the First Amendment, either, but they have always made decisions on that basis. Those decisions are part of the law.

Congress didn't need to define every term in the statute. They understood jurisdiction according to its ordinary public meaning at the time, which was that children born to illegal immigrants were under US jurisdiction. We know this because those children had been recognized as citizens for nearly a quarter-century (ever since Congress passed the Undesirable Aliens Act and created unlawful immigrant status as we know it) before the INA was passed.

As for citizenship status in another country, Wong Kim Ark addressed that directly. "Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States."

..because they were here LEGALLY. Wong Kim Ark did NOT address the US born children of illegal aliens.....per classroom instruction given by that bastion of the MAGA movement known as the US Department of State.

Now, if I had to bet $20, I would plunk it down on the square that says "Trump loses this case." But I suspect you will not see them base it on the reasoning you use. I suspect they will cite decades of bureaucratic tradition as de facto law. (which will allow Congress to address the issue via statute).

Because they were here, period. That is the essence of jurisdiction.

Congress cannot take away what the Constitution provides. See again Wong Kim Ark: The power of naturalization, vested in Congress by the Constitution, is a power to confer citizenship, not a power to take it away. "A naturalized citizen," said Chief Justice Marshall,

"becomes a member of the society, possessing all the rights of a native citizen, and standing, in the view of the Constitution, on the footing of a native. The Constitution does not authorize Congress to enlarge or abridge those rights. The simple power of the National Legislature is to prescribe a uniform rule of naturalization, and the exercise of this power exhausts it so far as respects the individual. The Constitution then takes him up, and, among other rights, extends to him the capacity of suing in the courts of the United States, precisely under the same circumstances under which a native might sue."

Osborn v. United States Bank, 9 Wheat. 738, 22 U. S. 827. Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.


If that were the true, it would not be legal for ICE to deny entry to an arriving visitor and put them on the next plane home. We would have to admit them, incarcerate them, then deport them...."because they are here." We don't do that because they are not under the jurisdiction of the USA until an official of the USG puts and arrival stamp in their passport.

And the word "naturalized" does not mean what your argument imputes. A person who acquires citizenship at birth is a "natural born" US citizen (born in the jurisdiction of USA). The term "naturalized" applies to a citizen of another country who satisfied statutory requirements to become a US citizen. (again, a simple concept straight from USG training on consular affairs).




Arriving visitors are not here, as a matter of law. Illegal immigrants are here, albeit unlawfully. I suspect you're conflating the two, but they are different and distinct concepts.
Courts have not ruled on that.

The argument isn't really about naturalized citizens. It's about birthright citizens, to whom the same reasoning applies a fortiori:

Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.
This does not specifically address those born here to persons here illegally..

Again, your argument rests entirely upon precedence established by a substantial body of regulatory interpretation in effect for several decades, NOT in statute or court ruling. If we can get to where we are via regulatory discretion, we should be able to get out of where we are via regulatory discretion.

I doubt this court will overturn the current body of regulatory law, but it is not out of the question, because as a plain matter of meaning, it makes no sense that we should reward illegal immigration with citizenship, and there is most certainly a disconnect between the way we handle people who arrive on our soil at ports of entry and people who do not. WHY IS ONE CONSIDERED TO NOT BE UNDER OUR JURISDICTION, AND THE OTHER NOT? Both are on our soil. Neither have been legally admitted.

The American people are very clear in opposition to the status quo. Public opinion is not supposed to matter in court. But it does hang heavy in the air from time to time.

The point is, to the extent there is any issue with persons born here to illegals, Congress has no authority to resolve it. Much less is it a matter of regulatory discretion. Constitutional issues are decided by the courts.

LOL geez dude. You are flailing.

The courts have not ruled on the definition of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." Therefore, the issue has been subject SOLELY to regulatory discretion.

Harrison Bergeron
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Glad to see the regressives still making heroes out of the human traffickers and slavers.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

your ability to just make things up to fit your case is indeed amusing. Here's the INA section on acquistion/transmission of citizenship:

Chapter 3 - U.S. Citizens at Birth (INA 301 and 309)
A. General Requirements for Acquisition of Citizenship at Birth
A person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen at birth, to include a child born to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe.

That definition of that phrase in bold has NOT been ruled upon by SCOTUS.
Neither is it further delineated in that section of the INA.

Trump is going to force the court to define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." It is hardly unreasonable to believe that the phrase has no meaning if it includes everyone who happens to be standing within the physical boundaries of US borders (regardless of their citizenship status in another country).


Just make things up is what you're hoping the Court will do. What you're trying to say is that they have never held on the issue. I doubt they've ever held that Christianity is a religion within the meaning of the First Amendment, either, but they have always made decisions on that basis. Those decisions are part of the law.

Congress didn't need to define every term in the statute. They understood jurisdiction according to its ordinary public meaning at the time, which was that children born to illegal immigrants were under US jurisdiction. We know this because those children had been recognized as citizens for nearly a quarter-century (ever since Congress passed the Undesirable Aliens Act and created unlawful immigrant status as we know it) before the INA was passed.

As for citizenship status in another country, Wong Kim Ark addressed that directly. "Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States."

..because they were here LEGALLY. Wong Kim Ark did NOT address the US born children of illegal aliens.....per classroom instruction given by that bastion of the MAGA movement known as the US Department of State.

Now, if I had to bet $20, I would plunk it down on the square that says "Trump loses this case." But I suspect you will not see them base it on the reasoning you use. I suspect they will cite decades of bureaucratic tradition as de facto law. (which will allow Congress to address the issue via statute).

Because they were here, period. That is the essence of jurisdiction.

Congress cannot take away what the Constitution provides. See again Wong Kim Ark: The power of naturalization, vested in Congress by the Constitution, is a power to confer citizenship, not a power to take it away. "A naturalized citizen," said Chief Justice Marshall,

"becomes a member of the society, possessing all the rights of a native citizen, and standing, in the view of the Constitution, on the footing of a native. The Constitution does not authorize Congress to enlarge or abridge those rights. The simple power of the National Legislature is to prescribe a uniform rule of naturalization, and the exercise of this power exhausts it so far as respects the individual. The Constitution then takes him up, and, among other rights, extends to him the capacity of suing in the courts of the United States, precisely under the same circumstances under which a native might sue."

Osborn v. United States Bank, 9 Wheat. 738, 22 U. S. 827. Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.


If that were the true, it would not be legal for ICE to deny entry to an arriving visitor and put them on the next plane home. We would have to admit them, incarcerate them, then deport them...."because they are here." We don't do that because they are not under the jurisdiction of the USA until an official of the USG puts and arrival stamp in their passport.

And the word "naturalized" does not mean what your argument imputes. A person who acquires citizenship at birth is a "natural born" US citizen (born in the jurisdiction of USA). The term "naturalized" applies to a citizen of another country who satisfied statutory requirements to become a US citizen. (again, a simple concept straight from USG training on consular affairs).




Arriving visitors are not here, as a matter of law. Illegal immigrants are here, albeit unlawfully. I suspect you're conflating the two, but they are different and distinct concepts.
Courts have not ruled on that.

The argument isn't really about naturalized citizens. It's about birthright citizens, to whom the same reasoning applies a fortiori:

Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the Constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of Congress, a fortiori no act or omission of Congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the Constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment, while it leaves the power where it was before, in Congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.
This does not specifically address those born here to persons here illegally..

Again, your argument rests entirely upon precedence established by a substantial body of regulatory interpretation in effect for several decades, NOT in statute or court ruling. If we can get to where we are via regulatory discretion, we should be able to get out of where we are via regulatory discretion.

I doubt this court will overturn the current body of regulatory law, but it is not out of the question, because as a plain matter of meaning, it makes no sense that we should reward illegal immigration with citizenship, and there is most certainly a disconnect between the way we handle people who arrive on our soil at ports of entry and people who do not. WHY IS ONE CONSIDERED TO NOT BE UNDER OUR JURISDICTION, AND THE OTHER NOT? Both are on our soil. Neither have been legally admitted.

The American people are very clear in opposition to the status quo. Public opinion is not supposed to matter in court. But it does hang heavy in the air from time to time.

The point is, to the extent there is any issue with persons born here to illegals, Congress has no authority to resolve it. Much less is it a matter of regulatory discretion. Constitutional issues are decided by the courts.

LOL geez dude. You are flailing.

The courts have not ruled on the definition of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." Therefore, the issue has been subject SOLELY to regulatory discretion.



Of course they have ruled on it.

Plyler v. Doe (1982): "Use of the phrase 'within its jurisdiction' thus does not detract from, but rather confirms, the understanding that the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory. That a person's initial entry into a State, or into the United States, was unlawful, and that he may for that reason be expelled, cannot negate the simple fact of his presence within the State's territorial perimeter. Given such presence, he is subject to the full range of obligations imposed by the State's civil and criminal laws. And until he leaves the jurisdiction -- either voluntarily, or involuntarily in accordance with the Constitution and laws of the United States -- he is entitled to the equal protection of the laws that a State may choose to establish."
gtownbear
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Looks like Senator Cotton is putting forth a Bill to stop birthright citizenship in the Senate. Not sure, but I read that this could pass with a simple majority vote. So does that mean after the 60 vote to cut off debate or not. Above my knowledge on Senate rules.

https://theamericantribune.com/gop-senate-takes-action-to-finally-end-birthright-citizenship/
TinFoilHatPreacherBear
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historian said:

The last "nice guy" who successfully did what needed to be find was Ronald Reagan. Of course, the Left will dispute that label. Sour grapes.


Reagan was great. But I don't think he'd have done as much today given the state of the Democratic Party and society.
Democrats as voters were more reasonable and most actually loved their country. Now they are nothing but hate.
ScottS
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Oldbear83 said:

Sam doesn't want Trump to do his job.


Now Sam says Congress can't do it either.

Sam has a serious judge fetish problem.


Are you sure?
historian
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When they say passing a bill with a simple majority that means they won't need 60. I'm not sure how that is possible with a bill that is not about budgetary issues. That's how the parliamentarian almost sank the BBB.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
historian
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Different times. Unfortunately I think you are correct. Then sometimes some people surprise us. We already saw blue states go for Trump in three election cycles. Maybe we can get stronger majorities in both houses by getting rid of Dems & RINOs.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
historian
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I think he is using the term loosely.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Assassin
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https://www.johnlocke.org/memo-shows-dc-judges-concerns-about-trump/
"I will not die today, but the same cannot be said for you." - From Assassin's Creed
Assassin
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When it's done the correct/legal way. We Republicans welcome LEGAL immigrants

"I will not die today, but the same cannot be said for you." - From Assassin's Creed
gtownbear
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historian said:

When they say passing a bill with a simple majority that means they won't need 60. I'm not sure how that is possible with a bill that is not about budgetary issues. That's how the parliamentarian almost sank the BBB.

That is what I thought also; I'll try to look up where I read simply majority.
historian
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There could be a way around that barrier I'm unaware of. It's also possible whomever reported it was mistaken.

It would be nice to see it happen, any legal way they can get it.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Assassin
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Yuli - the latest to make a fake accusation against ICE saying this was kidnapped. This was 100% a fake and Federal agents arrested her. SHe is facing 10 years

Apparently, this was to get a GOFUND account with tons of contributions
"I will not die today, but the same cannot be said for you." - From Assassin's Creed
Assassin
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Assassin
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"I will not die today, but the same cannot be said for you." - From Assassin's Creed
Assassin
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Assassin said:

Yuli - the latest to make a fake accusation against ICE saying this was kidnapped. This was 100% a fake and Federal agents arrested her. SHe is facing 10 years

Apparently, this was to get a GOFUND account with tons of contributions

"I will not die today, but the same cannot be said for you." - From Assassin's Creed
historian
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Naturally
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
gtownbear
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historian said:

There could be a way around that barrier I'm unaware of. It's also possible whomever reported it was mistaken.

It would be nice to see it happen, any legal way they can get it.

No, I believe your statement concerning rules in the Senate are spot on. I must have seen comments by an individual that were probably mistaken. Good call. I do wish congress could pass a law stopping this birthright nonsense. We all know what the 14th amendment was for, and it was not for illegals coming in illegally to have a baby that would automatically be an American citizen. Just another scheme to wreck the country.
Porteroso
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It has just been this way too long. If we are going to end birthright citizenship for illegals, we need the states to do it via Constitutional amendment.

The Supreme Court is going to have a real problem undoing so many years of precedent based simply upon the fact that Trump wants it so.
Adriacus Peratuun
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Porteroso said:

It has just been this way too long. If we are going to end birthright citizenship for illegals, we need the states to do it via Constitutional amendment.

The Supreme Court is going to have a real problem undoing so many years of precedent based simply upon the fact that Trump wants it so.

Because Plessy wasn't overturned by Brown and Roe wasn't overturned by Dobbs.

oh, wait……..
 
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