right, thats why the moved them from there to a secured facility that met NARA standards..Sam Lowry said:No, there's no contradiction. The Hoffman Estates facility referred to in #7 is the Obama Presidential Library, operated by NARA.4th and Inches said:you realize the two contradict each other right? The 2018 letter shows there were records that werent in their control or stored correctly according to NARA standards. And even if they are in control now, in 2018, they were just as unsecure and included classified documents just like Trump supposedly. Its all in the letter Sam.Sam Lowry said:"The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) assumed exclusive legal and physical custody of Obama Presidential records when President Barack Obama left office in 2017, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act (PRA). NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area where they are maintained exclusively by NARA. Additionally, NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area. As required by the PRA, former President Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the Presidential records of his Administration."4th and Inches said:
"Currently the Obama presidential materials are housed in a temporary facility in Hoffman Estates, IL, which is not open to the public.
Obama presidential records are administered in accordance with the requirements of the Presidential Records Act (PRA) and will not be subject to public Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests until January 20, 2022."
Above is Copied from Archives.gov website
#7 is interesting..
https://www.obama.org/wp-content/uploads/BOF-NARA-LOI.pdf
As the 9-11-18 letter to NARA states, they agreed to move classified and non classified documents to a secured NARA facility. This was long after Obama left office, it shows he had classified documents and they were not kept to NARA standards.
Double standard? Maybe..
https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001
While we are chatting, thoughts?
"The Warrant violated the overbreadth doctrine of the 4th Amendment requirement of particularity."
The warrant specified evidence related to the crimes alleged, i.e. mishandling of documents, so I don't think it was overbroad.
Canada2017 said:We simply disagree . Have traveled the world over ( except for Africa ) experienced central and south America many times and read political history all my life.LateSteak69 said:Canada2017 said:Trump acted like a total ass after losing in November .LateSteak69 said:Canada2017 said:Booray said:Canada2017 said:Don't give a damn about Trump....you shouldn't either .Booray said:It seems obvious that the government had asked for documents and subpoeaned documents.Trump-as his M.O. blew all that off. At some point, you have to either go take them or say" The law does not apply to former presidents."Canada2017 said:Ends justify the means right ?Booray said:Sam Lowry said:It doesn't matter if the GOP candidate violated the Espionage Act?4th and Inches said:we will seeSam Lowry said:That is not going to happen. You're dramatically over-reading both the SCOTUS precedent and the Meadows memo.4th and Inches said:as soon as trump shows all the records he has are not classified, most of it goes to PRA issues which is an absolute nightmare for the Biden admin as it appears they were targeting a political opponent..whiterock said:see above. articles/documents do not have to have formal classification indicators to be treated, properly, as classified material.4th and Inches said:18 USC 793 - also called the Espionage Act. This statute "prohibits communicating, transmitting, or delivering to any person not entitled to receive it 'any document, writing, ... or note relating to the national defense,' or attempting to do so."ScruffyD said:
the warrant covers the espionage act. therefore, proof would have to have been provided to a judge.
So they hve proof he tried to give it to somebody? He is entitled to have it based on 1987 SCOTUS ruling..
Based on what has come out so far, it looks as bad for Biden admin as it does for Trump. If it clears him from the fielf, great!
Watch dems get their rears kicked in November and again in 2024 no matter who is GOP canidate..
It doesn't matter if he shot someone on 5th Avenue, so why should an Espionage Act violation matter?
Stalin provided the blueprint.....' show trials' .
Just charge Trump for spying for the Russians, for the Chinese .....or for spying for the Vatican. Who cares ?
And it Trump doesn't 'confess' line up his family against the wall.
If he does 'confess' then spare Trump's family but by all means line him up against the wall.
Its for the betterment of the country after all .
To protect democracy .
But that is the equivalent of mass executions? A bit much even for a drama queen like you.
By the way, when are the Dems going to get around to revoking the filibuster rule, making Puerto Rico and D.C. states and packing the Supremen Court? A point I bring up becuase those were your drama queen points when Biden was elected.
Instead you are attempting to 'justify' a blatant abuse of authority for political advantage .
Believe me ....if Republicans were doing such incredible bull**** to Barrack Hussein Obama.........I would be just as angry . Because its implications for the future of the United States and its people would be just as grim.
Of course in THAT case you would be be right there with me .
And I call absolute bs on the facts that you don't care about Trump or you would defend Obama on anything.
I don't like Trump and despise Obama .....but what is important are the traditions that has kept this country from dissolving into banana republic status .
And one of the most important traditions is leaving past presidents alone...otherwise we invite the nightmare often found in central and south American countries .
Pushing the FBI onto ANY presidents home is 100% political assault abusing the offices of the DOJ and FBI. This situation is nothing like Watergate ...and even Nixon's home was never violated.
You mean like the traditions of a peaceful transfer of power and conceding an election?
IMO disqualified himself from any future consideration.
But there was no 'insurrection ' and what the Biden administration has done is horrific .
Nixon was guilty of far worse transgressions and even he never had his house raided.
Dude he tried to overturn an election. It's on tape, we've been over this a million times. I get, kind of, why people voted for him in 2016, but he's been a piece of **** his entire life. I know you think the left is the end of the world, but I fear what trump has done far worse than some empty leftist bull*****
What Biden is doing is a huge mistake ...regardless how it finally turns out....we are entering a non ending banana republic mentally of revenge .
No, it is not the end of the world...I apologize if I have given that impression .
But almost every president since Hoover has had political enemies who thought they 'deserved' to be in prison for one reason or another .....yet those that followed them into the White House wisely let matters drop. Not for the sake of the man involved...but for the sake of the stability of United States .
having fun reading the whole thing.Sam Lowry said:Which section of the order is that?4th and Inches said:
Obamas order #13526 specifically exempts POTUS from declassification protocols
You're inferring that the library wasn't up to standards. The letter doesn't say that, but even if it is true the responsible party would be NARA.4th and Inches said:right, thats why the moved them from there to a secured facility that met NARA standards..Sam Lowry said:No, there's no contradiction. The Hoffman Estates facility referred to in #7 is the Obama Presidential Library, operated by NARA.4th and Inches said:you realize the two contradict each other right? The 2018 letter shows there were records that werent in their control or stored correctly according to NARA standards. And even if they are in control now, in 2018, they were just as unsecure and included classified documents just like Trump supposedly. Its all in the letter Sam.Sam Lowry said:"The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) assumed exclusive legal and physical custody of Obama Presidential records when President Barack Obama left office in 2017, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act (PRA). NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area where they are maintained exclusively by NARA. Additionally, NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area. As required by the PRA, former President Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the Presidential records of his Administration."4th and Inches said:
"Currently the Obama presidential materials are housed in a temporary facility in Hoffman Estates, IL, which is not open to the public.
Obama presidential records are administered in accordance with the requirements of the Presidential Records Act (PRA) and will not be subject to public Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests until January 20, 2022."
Above is Copied from Archives.gov website
#7 is interesting..
https://www.obama.org/wp-content/uploads/BOF-NARA-LOI.pdf
As the 9-11-18 letter to NARA states, they agreed to move classified and non classified documents to a secured NARA facility. This was long after Obama left office, it shows he had classified documents and they were not kept to NARA standards.
Double standard? Maybe..
https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001
While we are chatting, thoughts?
"The Warrant violated the overbreadth doctrine of the 4th Amendment requirement of particularity."
The warrant specified evidence related to the crimes alleged, i.e. mishandling of documents, so I don't think it was overbroad.
Its in the letter Sam.
i am not infering anything, I can read what it says. Thats what it says..Sam Lowry said:You're inferring that the library wasn't up to standards. The letter doesn't say that, but even if it is true the responsible party would be NARA.4th and Inches said:right, thats why the moved them from there to a secured facility that met NARA standards..Sam Lowry said:No, there's no contradiction. The Hoffman Estates facility referred to in #7 is the Obama Presidential Library, operated by NARA.4th and Inches said:you realize the two contradict each other right? The 2018 letter shows there were records that werent in their control or stored correctly according to NARA standards. And even if they are in control now, in 2018, they were just as unsecure and included classified documents just like Trump supposedly. Its all in the letter Sam.Sam Lowry said:"The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) assumed exclusive legal and physical custody of Obama Presidential records when President Barack Obama left office in 2017, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act (PRA). NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area where they are maintained exclusively by NARA. Additionally, NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area. As required by the PRA, former President Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the Presidential records of his Administration."4th and Inches said:
"Currently the Obama presidential materials are housed in a temporary facility in Hoffman Estates, IL, which is not open to the public.
Obama presidential records are administered in accordance with the requirements of the Presidential Records Act (PRA) and will not be subject to public Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests until January 20, 2022."
Above is Copied from Archives.gov website
#7 is interesting..
https://www.obama.org/wp-content/uploads/BOF-NARA-LOI.pdf
As the 9-11-18 letter to NARA states, they agreed to move classified and non classified documents to a secured NARA facility. This was long after Obama left office, it shows he had classified documents and they were not kept to NARA standards.
Double standard? Maybe..
https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001
While we are chatting, thoughts?
"The Warrant violated the overbreadth doctrine of the 4th Amendment requirement of particularity."
The warrant specified evidence related to the crimes alleged, i.e. mishandling of documents, so I don't think it was overbroad.
Its in the letter Sam.
I already did, that's why I asked. The only relevant section I found was 3.7, which deals with "the development of effective, transparent, and standard declassification work processes, training, and quality assurance measures." If anything it seems contrary to what you're claiming.4th and Inches said:having fun reading the whole thing.Sam Lowry said:Which section of the order is that?4th and Inches said:
Obamas order #13526 specifically exempts POTUS from declassification protocols
section 4.4 is cool.. grants past presidents access to classified material and waives need to know requirement.
I was in Texas in the 1970's so I was here before his time. What does his situation have to do with a former president and future candidate for POTUS?4th and Inches said:not from Texas or really young..ABC BEAR said:Who the hell is John Wiley Price?quash said:ABC BEAR said:Of course with Obama they call and schedule an appointment. They also leave their guns at home during the interview session with the great one.Sam Lowry said:Historians certainly care. The DOJ doesn't care because, unlike Trump, Obama is cooperating with NARA and they're the ones in charge of digitizing the documents. So it's a very different situation from what Cruz would have you believe.4th and Inches said:
At the end of his presidency, Barack Obama trucked 30 million pages of his administration's records to Chicago...More than five years after Obama's presidency ended, the National Archives webpage reveals that zero pages have been digitized & disclosed..
Obama is a Dem and aint running for office so nobody cares..
Forty5th got a call. And a subpoena.
When he ignored those he got a warrant served n him that had gone through three of his appointees.
This is by the book, rule of law stuff
Just like whn it happened to John Wiley Price. A politician.A Democrat. Y'all celebrated the FBI on that occasion.
Huh.
Dallas county Democrat since the 80s
3.5 has a few things. I presented the information as food for thought, not particularly claiming anything. I know there are some smart people on here who can give me a sound opinionSam Lowry said:I already did, that's why I asked. The only relevant section I found was 3.7, which deals with "the development of effective, transparent, and standard declassification work processes, training, and quality assurance measures." If anything it seems contrary to what you're claiming.4th and Inches said:having fun reading the whole thing.Sam Lowry said:Which section of the order is that?4th and Inches said:
Obamas order #13526 specifically exempts POTUS from declassification protocols
section 4.4 is cool.. grants past presidents access to classified material and waives need to know requirement.
Agreed, it will not end well.Oldbear83 said:
As we roll into Saturday night, what we have learned about our government is unsettling and unpopular with those who understand History.
This will not end well.
It says they're moving the records from Hoffman Estates to NARA-controlled facilities that conform to the agency's archival storage standards. It says nothing about who controls the Hoffman Estates facility or what standards are in place there. You inferred that the records weren't already in their control or stored properly. As we now know, your first inference was incorrect. The Obama Library at Hoffman Estates was and is operated by NARA, and the records have been in their exclusive legal and physical custody since Obama left office. They were simply moving them from one NARA facility to another. As to your second inference, it may or may not be accurate. One would presume that NARA standards apply in both facilities, but if for some reason they don't, again that's on NARA. It's also worth noting that they're talking about archival standards, not security standards. Archival standards have to do with things like preservation and cataloguing. So that's even less reason to believe the documents weren't secure.4th and Inches said:i am not infering anything, I can read what it says. Thats what it says..Sam Lowry said:You're inferring that the library wasn't up to standards. The letter doesn't say that, but even if it is true the responsible party would be NARA.4th and Inches said:right, thats why the moved them from there to a secured facility that met NARA standards..Sam Lowry said:No, there's no contradiction. The Hoffman Estates facility referred to in #7 is the Obama Presidential Library, operated by NARA.4th and Inches said:you realize the two contradict each other right? The 2018 letter shows there were records that werent in their control or stored correctly according to NARA standards. And even if they are in control now, in 2018, they were just as unsecure and included classified documents just like Trump supposedly. Its all in the letter Sam.Sam Lowry said:"The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) assumed exclusive legal and physical custody of Obama Presidential records when President Barack Obama left office in 2017, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act (PRA). NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area where they are maintained exclusively by NARA. Additionally, NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area. As required by the PRA, former President Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the Presidential records of his Administration."4th and Inches said:
"Currently the Obama presidential materials are housed in a temporary facility in Hoffman Estates, IL, which is not open to the public.
Obama presidential records are administered in accordance with the requirements of the Presidential Records Act (PRA) and will not be subject to public Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests until January 20, 2022."
Above is Copied from Archives.gov website
#7 is interesting..
https://www.obama.org/wp-content/uploads/BOF-NARA-LOI.pdf
As the 9-11-18 letter to NARA states, they agreed to move classified and non classified documents to a secured NARA facility. This was long after Obama left office, it shows he had classified documents and they were not kept to NARA standards.
Double standard? Maybe..
https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001
While we are chatting, thoughts?
"The Warrant violated the overbreadth doctrine of the 4th Amendment requirement of particularity."
The warrant specified evidence related to the crimes alleged, i.e. mishandling of documents, so I don't think it was overbroad.
Its in the letter Sam.
The key point of Navy v. Egan is that the president's authority arises from the Constitution apart from any grant by Congress. It doesn't mean the power is absolute or that it can't be limited by the other branches. How do we know this? Because the Court said so:4th and Inches said:3.5 has a few things. I presented the information as food for thought, not particularly claiming anything. I know there are some smart people on here who can give me a sound opinionSam Lowry said:I already did, that's why I asked. The only relevant section I found was 3.7, which deals with "the development of effective, transparent, and standard declassification work processes, training, and quality assurance measures." If anything it seems contrary to what you're claiming.4th and Inches said:having fun reading the whole thing.Sam Lowry said:Which section of the order is that?4th and Inches said:
Obamas order #13526 specifically exempts POTUS from declassification protocols
section 4.4 is cool.. grants past presidents access to classified material and waives need to know requirement.
The best understanding comes from alternative points of view.
I still lean toward You trying to pigeon hole the president into something he doesnt have to be in.. my buddy who is a former AUSA said POTUS can do what he wants, he is the maker of executive policy and EOs dont apply to him. Same for the rules of the executive branch under POTUS.
Leads us back in to Egan- POTUS ability to classify and control the flow of national security information arises from the constitutional investment of power in the head of the executive branch. Constitution overrides everything..
So it's certainly true that the president has inherent authority, but to claim absolute authority is to overread a narrow decision.Quote:
Unless Congress specifically has provided otherwise, courts traditionally have been reluctant to intrude upon the authority of the Executive in military and national security affairs.
as I said before, GSA packed and documented what was there before shipping, if there is extra it will be obvious.. NARA would have had a copy of what was there from GSA for months. There was nothing new to discover "when going thru boxes" as the NARA claimed.ScruffyD said:
Let's all hope that Trump declassified, retroactively, the documents the FBI planted.
So you believe that Trump looked at documents and said I want that one, that one and that one. Those about nuclear weapons take those too?Stefano DiMera said:
How does the whole 'Secret Service protection for life ' thing work when one is in prison?
I hope whatever agent gets that assignment is studying for his Master's cause he'll have a lot of downtime to read.
No one...not even the biggest Trump hater........really believes the old ego maniac took the time necessary to go through each of these boxes .......picked out super secret documents and then left them there in his basement for 18 months.RMF5630 said:So you believe that Trump looked at documents and said I want that one, that one and that one. Those about nuclear weapons take those too?Stefano DiMera said:
How does the whole 'Secret Service protection for life ' thing work when one is in prison?
I hope whatever agent gets that assignment is studying for his Master's cause he'll have a lot of downtime to read.
Don't know if it screams ' planted evidence'.....but it certainly contributes to the perception that fat boy is getting railroaded.4th and Inches said:
Trump said he was gonna release the security video- DOJ supeana'd it. That doesnt scream we planted evidence at all..
It won't be "resolved" until well after 2024.RMF5630 said:So you believe that Trump looked at documents and said I want that one, that one and that one. Those about nuclear weapons take those too?Stefano DiMera said:
How does the whole 'Secret Service protection for life ' thing work when one is in prison?
I hope whatever agent gets that assignment is studying for his Master's cause he'll have a lot of downtime to read.
Now I can see him saying I want my hurricane picture I drew on or my letter with Kim for posterity. I just have a hard time believing that Trump sat there and went through these docs and gave a thumbs up and thumbs down.
I also have a hard time believing this all went down without anyone from NARA or GSA present and creating an inventory.
Prediction, it was all much to do about nothing and will be resolved by say, December 15th.
Unless it was.Golem said:
POTUS has plenary power over ALL classification. That means he has been granted in absolute terms, with no review of or limitations upon the exercise of that power, the right to determine what is and is not classified.
There is quite literally no way anything in his home was classified if he says it wasn't.
Dem's utilized the FBI to SPY on Trump's 2016 presidential campaign .ScruffyD said:
Yall give the Democrats a bit too much credit. They cant come up with a coherent message but yet they can pull off all these sinister deeds?
Sam Lowry said:Unless it was.Golem said:
POTUS has plenary power over ALL classification. That means he has been granted in absolute terms, with no review of or limitations upon the exercise of that power, the right to determine what is and is not classified.
There is quite literally no way anything in his home was classified if he says it wasn't.
Sam Lowry said:Unless it was.Golem said:
POTUS has plenary power over ALL classification. That means he has been granted in absolute terms, with no review of or limitations upon the exercise of that power, the right to determine what is and is not classified.
There is quite literally no way anything in his home was classified if he says it wasn't.
yepRMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Unless it was.Golem said:
POTUS has plenary power over ALL classification. That means he has been granted in absolute terms, with no review of or limitations upon the exercise of that power, the right to determine what is and is not classified.
There is quite literally no way anything in his home was classified if he says it wasn't.
Sam, using the same standard Comey explained for Hillary being there was no intent so he couldn't charge. Wouldn't Trump believing he declassified everything show he had no intent to take classified docs? Without intent, according to Comey, there is no case. Trump clearly thought everything was declassified.
