xxx yyy said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam and Oso have completely bought into the Hate.

They are too far down the road to hell for them to consider a course correction.

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"You should post less on this subject until you can better control your emotions."

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So should we all! In the words of my Cardiologist, "Maybe a little less time on the R&P board."

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I have several pages of Old's non-sequiturs. When he goes incoherent I trot them out to answer his BS with his BS. They will appear in quotes

HuMcK said:

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All of that may be well and good...except that we know they found classified documents outside of that room you call secure. Now we also know that they also found around 50 empty folders (!) with classification markings.

There just is no way to spin this, other than admitting Trump royally fcked up.

---

50 empty folders with classification markings?

So I put a Top Secret label on a manila folder and now it's covered by the espionage act?

Seriously?

No, because you are just a random message board poster. Don't take yourself so seriously.

Now, if you are a former president who took Top Secret docs, lied about having them, lied about saying you gave them all back, lied about saying they were secured, and then we find that some are missing -- yes that is going to raise some eyebrows.

But my guess is that if you, Whiterock, want to go to Office Depot and get some folders and labels, and print Top Secret on them you can have yourself a big time!

Sam Lowry said:

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Neither are the Marine Security Guards (MSGs) at our Embassies abroad there to monitor what US diplomats do with their documents. %A0

Both are, however, deployed to protect US Govt personnel and facilities, to specifically include preventing access by unauthorized individuals to facilities, thereby sharply limiting unauthorized access to classified materials at those facilities. %A0 Each has specific responsibility to defend the living as well as work spaces of POTUS or equivalent. %A0(A US Ambassador is the PERSONAL representative to POTUS and the senior USG official in country, save for a designated theater commander of the US Military.)

So, actually, the only upgrade to the USSS for the purposes of protecting classified material from unauthorized use would be an armed US military detachment.

(Sorry, but you kinda walked into the proverbial %A0tree limb on that one)

---

There's nothing to be sorry about except for that word salad you just spilled. None of it changes a thing, and you know it. Mar-a-Lago is a hotel, not a government facility. The Secret Service are there to keep out weapons and wiretaps. They have no real idea who's coming or going, let alone who's "authorized."

---

Wrong. %A0 MAL is also a personal residence and office. %A0 %A0USSS was/is %A0deployed there to protect the President of the United States, his person, his residence, and his office. %A0 Access does not happen without their approval. %A0 %A0That is/was true at the Bush Ranch, at the Bush home in Dallas, at the Obama home, etc%85.exceedingly well defended. %A0 Access is logged in/out, cameras, armed patrols, etc%85.

Documents at the residence of a former POTUS are better defended than at any Embassy abroad. %A0

You do not know what you are talking about and are saying demonstrably silly things. %A0 %A0

---

You do know what you're talking about (presumably) and are saying demonstrably silly things...which is worse.

---

Ok. %A0Elaborate.

---

You've talked at great length about safeguards in embassies and document storage facilities, safeguards on which your career depended. Now you're telling us none of that matters as long as a few Secret Service agents are around. Do you think SS is scouring rooms and looking behind filing cabinets for stray documents? Obviously not, if the FBI found loose documents in desk drawers as has been reported. Shouldn't be a surprise because it isn't their job.

Other ex-presidential homes don't have a steady stream of visitors like MAL does. Not just members, but guests of members, and people sponsored by members. The real point isn't that MAL is uniquely bad (even though it is, by all reports). The point is that it's not expected to have appropriate security for top secret material because former presidents aren't expected to take top secret material home with them. And no other president has, despite the lies still lingering in the air from Sen. Cruz.

---

Ok, Skippy. %A0 I also worked at Langley, behind armed guards, badge-key entry barriers, and combination locked doors securing entire office suites, and at other secure facilities in the No. Virginia area. %A0Also trained in secure locations across the USA, to include facilities controlled by other govt agencies.

But here's the real hole in your argument: %A0 Camp David has max level physical and document security protocols. %A0Why? %A0Because Presidents occasionally handle matters of state there. %A0 %A0When LBJ was alive, his ranch had all that. Why? %A0Because he occasionally handled matters of state there. %A0 Same for Carter's residence. %A0Reagan's ranch. %A0Bush 41's Houston home. %A0Bush 43's ranch in Crawford. %A0

Need I go on?

in 2016, MAL was, like every other personal residence/retreat of a newly elected POTUS, retro-fitted with all necessary upgrades to make secure the sitting President of the United States and any official functions he performed there. %A0 Those remain in place after that POTUS leave office, with amendments to reflect reduced communication needs, USSS staffing, etc....

Don't be a doofus. %A0 The argument "MAL is insecure" is quite possibly the weakest argument you could make. %A0You literally do not know enough to realize how much you do not know.

---

You sure do know a lot. Even more than the DOJ lawyers running the investigation, apparently. Here's what they said, as quoted in the affidavit:

Quote:

---

As I previously indicated to you, Mar-a-Lago does not include a secure location authorized for the storage of classified information. As such, it appears that since the time classified documents were removed from the secure facilities at the White House and moved to Mar-a-Lago on or around January 20, 2021, they have not been handled in an appropriate manner or stored in an appropriate location.

---

You also told me that no access to MAL happens without Secret Service approval. I guess you didn't tell those doofuses in the Secret Service:

Quote:

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The Secret Service said when Trump was president that it does not determine who is granted access to the club, but does do physical screenings to make sure no one brings in prohibited items, and further screening for guests in proximity to the president and other protectees.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-mar-a-lago-security-nightmare-that-housed-classified-documents-2022-08-13/

---

Reminds me of that Navy v. Egan case we were talking about earlier, where the court said Congress could limit the president's classification power. Turns out the court was wrong because...well, because you said so! And to think of all the time I wasted in school, when I could have been here, studying at your feet.

---

well done on the selective and misleading explanation of Egan.

And equally selective and misleading on the explanation of security at MAL. %A0Secret Service does not protect the club. %A0It protects the residence, which was a secure facility 18 months ago. %A0 No one ever expressed outrage that Presidential business was transacted there during Trump's term. %A0 Did they? %A0Did we miss it somehow? %A0 So tell us what changed. %A0 Be specific. %A0Prove your work.

---

Actually there were concerns even during his presidency. I posted this article a few pages back. Remarkably, the affidavit concluded that no space within the premises has been authorized for storage of classified information at least since the end of FPOTUS' presidential administration on January 20, 2021. As for specific measures, those would likely be found in the redacted parts of the affidavit. I'm sure your background would allow you to speculate profusely on the details. I will leave that to you. What matters in this discussion is that MAL is not a secure location for document storage purposes and hasn't been for quite some time.

---

the answer you should have provided is this: they removed the safes where classified documents were stored during the Trump Presidency.

Classified materials must be stored behind a combination lock, protected by USG physical perimeter security. That's why NARA requested after their visit in Februrary 2022 that a lock be placed on the door to the room where the boxes were stored. And that request was fulfilled. The SS perimeter security has never left. So, technically, the MAL residence was at the pre-20Jan2020 standard at the time of the raid with respect to storage of classified materials. It had a designated room with a combination lock in a facility protected by armed USG personnel.

So the violation in question is about storage of declassified documents being stored outside of a classified safe in an area otherwise meeting standards for storage of classified material.

Obviously, it was therefore necessary to send FBI agents to raid the home of political opponent during an election.

---

"Behind a combination lock protected by armed security" is not a standard that exists in any regulation I've seen. The Defense Department, State Department, and NARA all generally require locked containers. There are other methods, but there's no reason to think any of them were in use, especially since the DOJ clearly determined otherwise. They requested that a lock be placed on the door because they wanted to ensure, as far as possible, that nothing was moved. Now, of course, it appears that quite a bit was moved in order to frustrate the recovery effort. As for declassifying the documents, there's no evidence that happened except for Trump's scattershot remarks, which every knowledgeable witness so far has bluntly contradicted. He says nothing about it in his court filings, which should tell you something. It's the same tactic he used with his bogus voter fraud claims -- play it up in the media when you know it won't fly in court.

---

Au contraire. It is the standard. An office suite at Langley does not, rpt does not have locked containers. It has a locked door. The locked door turns the entire office suite into a vault....a container. (I mean, I could go into a LOT more detail...) A lock on a door turns a room into a "locked container" on every floor of every office building in the entire intelligence community in WDC. NOBODY working in those office files away classified documents into combo-locked file safe containers if the office suite door is protected by a combination lock. You don't have to. It's not necessary. They leave them laying about openly right on top of their desks when they leave for the day. Big piles of classified documents in inboxes, multiple stacks on top the desk, at every desk in the suite. That is one of the joys of working at Hqs rather than the field. The security procedure for the last guy out of a Hqs suite is to close the door good & hard and spin the lock. No need to take 30 minutes or more to check behind desks, cabinets, printers (the place where most security violations occur), in every drawer, etc.... It was onerous enough duty abroad we had a duty schedule for it, so that no one person would have to bear all the risk for missing a security violation that would get found the next morning. Working overseas is waaaaay more complicated on security issues than what the REMFs at Hqs had to deal with.

Bottom line is, a combination lock on a door in a facility with perimenter protection by USSS is effectively the standard. For that reason, you will not see "bad storage" as part of any charges.

You really do not understand how much you do not know on this subject, but it doesn't affect your arguments because I'm the only person here who knows how full of **** you are talking about classification standards and I can't go further thanks to....classification.

ScruffyD said:

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No, because you are just a random message board poster. Don't take yourself so seriously.

Now, if you are a former president who took Top Secret docs, lied about having them, lied about saying you gave them all back, lied about saying they were secured, and then we find that some are missing -- yes that is going to raise some eyebrows.

But my guess is that if you, Whiterock, want to go to Office Depot and get some folders and labels, and print Top Secret on them you can have yourself a big time!

---

unless those documents were declassified (which they were), in which case your entire argument goes up in smoke.

The folders marked classified are not even combustible.

Osodecentx said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Rawhide said:

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Golem said:

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HuMcK said:

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The more detailed inventory just filed and released notes that 48 empty folders marked classified were found, along with 23 empty folders marked "return to staff secretary/military aide". These are presumably not cover folders for the other classified docs found, as those had their own cover sheets attached.

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Were the folders smoking?

Just a little enlightenment for you…things that are printed on paper today are digital and remain digital somewhere else. This is what accounts for the mass number of burn bags and shredders in particular government facilities, without violating rules regarding retention of those same documents. The documents that are destroyed are not actually destroyed. Only a copy of them is destroyed. What's more, it's no crime to destroy copies of unclassified documents….if the empty folders indicate that even happened.

The walls are STILL not closing in. Your wet dreams are not going to come true. Change your shorts and get back to mopping the floor.

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Maybe the gov't can spend another 35 mil for a 3 year investigation into the Trump docs and then only come up empty handed - again.

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There you go. Let's talk about Trump!!
Midterms are coming, Proud Boys need pardons

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How many pardons did Trump issue when he was in office to the Jan 6th people or any Proud Boy?

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Do you think he should? Midterms are coming. Let's talk about Proud Boy pardons instead of Biden

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Trump isn't. You are. So who's really risking the mid-terms?

Osodecentx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam and Oso have completely bought into the Hate.

They are too far down the road to hell for them to consider a course correction.

---

"You should post less on this subject until you can better control your emotions."

---

Front-runner for Ironic Post of the Year.

whiterock said:

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HuMcK said:

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All of that may be well and good...except that we know they found classified documents outside of that room you call secure. Now we also know that they also found around 50 empty folders (!) with classification markings.

There just is no way to spin this, other than admitting Trump royally fcked up.

---

50 empty folders with classification markings?

So I put a Top Secret label on a manila folder and now it's covered by the espionage act?

Seriously?

---

You damn well better have an acceptable explanation for where the docs that used to be in those folders are now, because if not then yes, that could open one up to prosecution for espionage. Especially if one had been being caught lying about returning classified docs not even 3 weeks ago.

HuMcK said:

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whiterock said:

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HuMcK said:

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All of that may be well and good...except that we know they found classified documents outside of that room you call secure. Now we also know that they also found around 50 empty folders (!) with classification markings.

There just is no way to spin this, other than admitting Trump royally fcked up.

---

50 empty folders with classification markings?

So I put a Top Secret label on a manila folder and now it's covered by the espionage act?

Seriously?

---

You damn well better have an acceptable explanation for where the docs that used to be in those folders are now, because if not then yes, that could open one up to prosecution for espionage. Especially if one had been being caught lying about returning classified docs not even 3 weeks ago.

---

you better hope no one finds an empty casket in your back yard tomorrow morning.

how old are you?

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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w said:

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Neither are the Marine Security Guards (MSGs) at our Embassies abroad there to monitor what US diplomats do with their documents. %A0

Both are, however, deployed to protect US Govt personnel and facilities, to specifically include preventing access by unauthorized individuals to facilities, thereby sharply limiting unauthorized access to classified materials at those facilities. %A0 Each has specific responsibility to defend the living as well as work spaces of POTUS or equivalent. %A0(A US Ambassador is the PERSONAL representative to POTUS and the senior USG official in country, save for a designated theater commander of the US Military.)

So, actually, the only upgrade to the USSS for the purposes of protecting classified material from unauthorized use would be an armed US military detachment.

(Sorry, but you kinda walked into the proverbial %A0tree limb on that one)

---

There's nothing to be sorry about except for that word salad you just spilled. None of it changes a thing, and you know it. Mar-a-Lago is a hotel, not a government facility. The Secret Service are there to keep out weapons and wiretaps. They have no real idea who's coming or going, let alone who's "authorized."

---

Wrong. %A0 MAL is also a personal residence and office. %A0 %A0USSS was/is %A0deployed there to protect the President of the United States, his person, his residence, and his office. %A0 Access does not happen without their approval. %A0 %A0That is/was true at the Bush Ranch, at the Bush home in Dallas, at the Obama home, etc%85.exceedingly well defended. %A0 Access is logged in/out, cameras, armed patrols, etc%85.

Documents at the residence of a former POTUS are better defended than at any Embassy abroad. %A0

You do not know what you are talking about and are saying demonstrably silly things. %A0 %A0

---

You do know what you're talking about (presumably) and are saying demonstrably silly things...which is worse.

---

Ok. %A0Elaborate.

---

You've talked at great length about safeguards in embassies and document storage facilities, safeguards on which your career depended. Now you're telling us none of that matters as long as a few Secret Service agents are around. Do you think SS is scouring rooms and looking behind filing cabinets for stray documents? Obviously not, if the FBI found loose documents in desk drawers as has been reported. Shouldn't be a surprise because it isn't their job.

Other ex-presidential homes don't have a steady stream of visitors like MAL does. Not just members, but guests of members, and people sponsored by members. The real point isn't that MAL is uniquely bad (even though it is, by all reports). The point is that it's not expected to have appropriate security for top secret material because former presidents aren't expected to take top secret material home with them. And no other president has, despite the lies still lingering in the air from Sen. Cruz.

---

Ok, Skippy. %A0 I also worked at Langley, behind armed guards, badge-key entry barriers, and combination locked doors securing entire office suites, and at other secure facilities in the No. Virginia area. %A0Also trained in secure locations across the USA, to include facilities controlled by other govt agencies.

But here's the real hole in your argument: %A0 Camp David has max level physical and document security protocols. %A0Why? %A0Because Presidents occasionally handle matters of state there. %A0 %A0When LBJ was alive, his ranch had all that. Why? %A0Because he occasionally handled matters of state there. %A0 Same for Carter's residence. %A0Reagan's ranch. %A0Bush 41's Houston home. %A0Bush 43's ranch in Crawford. %A0

Need I go on?

in 2016, MAL was, like every other personal residence/retreat of a newly elected POTUS, retro-fitted with all necessary upgrades to make secure the sitting President of the United States and any official functions he performed there. %A0 Those remain in place after that POTUS leave office, with amendments to reflect reduced communication needs, USSS staffing, etc....

Don't be a doofus. %A0 The argument "MAL is insecure" is quite possibly the weakest argument you could make. %A0You literally do not know enough to realize how much you do not know.

---

You sure do know a lot. Even more than the DOJ lawyers running the investigation, apparently. Here's what they said, as quoted in the affidavit:

Quote:

---

As I previously indicated to you, Mar-a-Lago does not include a secure location authorized for the storage of classified information. As such, it appears that since the time classified documents were removed from the secure facilities at the White House and moved to Mar-a-Lago on or around January 20, 2021, they have not been handled in an appropriate manner or stored in an appropriate location.

---

You also told me that no access to MAL happens without Secret Service approval. I guess you didn't tell those doofuses in the Secret Service:

Quote:

---

The Secret Service said when Trump was president that it does not determine who is granted access to the club, but does do physical screenings to make sure no one brings in prohibited items, and further screening for guests in proximity to the president and other protectees.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-mar-a-lago-security-nightmare-that-housed-classified-documents-2022-08-13/

---

Reminds me of that Navy v. Egan case we were talking about earlier, where the court said Congress could limit the president's classification power. Turns out the court was wrong because...well, because you said so! And to think of all the time I wasted in school, when I could have been here, studying at your feet.

---

well done on the selective and misleading explanation of Egan.

And equally selective and misleading on the explanation of security at MAL. %A0Secret Service does not protect the club. %A0It protects the residence, which was a secure facility 18 months ago. %A0 No one ever expressed outrage that Presidential business was transacted there during Trump's term. %A0 Did they? %A0Did we miss it somehow? %A0 So tell us what changed. %A0 Be specific. %A0Prove your work.

---

Actually there were concerns even during his presidency. I posted this article a few pages back. Remarkably, the affidavit concluded that no space within the premises has been authorized for storage of classified information at least since the end of FPOTUS' presidential administration on January 20, 2021. As for specific measures, those would likely be found in the redacted parts of the affidavit. I'm sure your background would allow you to speculate profusely on the details. I will leave that to you. What matters in this discussion is that MAL is not a secure location for document storage purposes and hasn't been for quite some time.

---

the answer you should have provided is this: they removed the safes where classified documents were stored during the Trump Presidency.

Classified materials must be stored behind a combination lock, protected by USG physical perimeter security. That's why NARA requested after their visit in Februrary 2022 that a lock be placed on the door to the room where the boxes were stored. And that request was fulfilled. The SS perimeter security has never left. So, technically, the MAL residence was at the pre-20Jan2020 standard at the time of the raid with respect to storage of classified materials. It had a designated room with a combination lock in a facility protected by armed USG personnel.

So the violation in question is about storage of declassified documents being stored outside of a classified safe in an area otherwise meeting standards for storage of classified material.

Obviously, it was therefore necessary to send FBI agents to raid the home of political opponent during an election.

---

"Behind a combination lock protected by armed security" is not a standard that exists in any regulation I've seen. The Defense Department, State Department, and NARA all generally require locked containers. There are other methods, but there's no reason to think any of them were in use, especially since the DOJ clearly determined otherwise. They requested that a lock be placed on the door because they wanted to ensure, as far as possible, that nothing was moved. Now, of course, it appears that quite a bit was moved in order to frustrate the recovery effort. As for declassifying the documents, there's no evidence that happened except for Trump's scattershot remarks, which every knowledgeable witness so far has bluntly contradicted. He says nothing about it in his court filings, which should tell you something. It's the same tactic he used with his bogus voter fraud claims -- play it up in the media when you know it won't fly in court.

---

Au contraire. It is the standard. An office suite at Langley does not, rpt does not have locked containers. It has a locked door. The locked door turns the entire office suite into a vault....a container. (I mean, I could go into a LOT more detail...) A lock on a door turns a room into a "locked container" on every floor of every office building in the entire intelligence community in WDC. NOBODY working in those office files away classified documents into combo-locked file safe containers if the office suite door is protected by a combination lock. You don't have to. It's not necessary. They leave them laying about openly right on top of their desks when they leave for the day. Big piles of classified documents in inboxes, multiple stacks on top the desk, at every desk in the suite. That is one of the joys of working at Hqs rather than the field. The security procedure for the last guy out of a Hqs suite is to close the door good & hard and spin the lock. No need to take 30 minutes or more to check behind desks, cabinets, printers (the place where most security violations occur), in every drawer, etc.... It was onerous enough duty abroad we had a duty schedule for it, so that no one person would have to bear all the risk for missing a security violation that would get found the next morning. Working overseas is waaaaay more complicated on security issues than what the REMFs at Hqs had to deal with.

Bottom line is, a combination lock on a door in a facility with perimenter protection by USSS is effectively the standard. For that reason, you will not see "bad storage" as part of any charges.

You really do not understand how much you do not know on this subject, but it doesn't affect your arguments because I'm the only person here who knows how full of **** you are talking about classification standards and I can't go further thanks to....classification.

---

Well, you've convinced me beyond a doubt now. You definitely do know how silly you're talking, and you must be doing it on purpose. Like I said, stop misleading these poor folks. They may not know better, but you and I do.

Sam Lowry said:

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Wrong. %A0 MAL is also a personal residence and office. %A0 %A0USSS was/is %A0deployed there to protect the President of the United States, his person, his residence, and his office. %A0 Access does not happen without their approval. %A0 %A0That is/was true at the Bush Ranch, at the Bush home in Dallas, at the Obama home, etc%85.exceedingly well defended. %A0 Access is logged in/out, cameras, armed patrols, etc%85.

Documents at the residence of a former POTUS are better defended than at any Embassy abroad. %A0

You do not know what you are talking about and are saying demonstrably silly things. %A0 %A0

---

You do know what you're talking about (presumably) and are saying demonstrably silly things...which is worse.

---

Ok. %A0Elaborate.

---

You've talked at great length about safeguards in embassies and document storage facilities, safeguards on which your career depended. Now you're telling us none of that matters as long as a few Secret Service agents are around. Do you think SS is scouring rooms and looking behind filing cabinets for stray documents? Obviously not, if the FBI found loose documents in desk drawers as has been reported. Shouldn't be a surprise because it isn't their job.

Other ex-presidential homes don't have a steady stream of visitors like MAL does. Not just members, but guests of members, and people sponsored by members. The real point isn't that MAL is uniquely bad (even though it is, by all reports). The point is that it's not expected to have appropriate security for top secret material because former presidents aren't expected to take top secret material home with them. And no other president has, despite the lies still lingering in the air from Sen. Cruz.

---

Ok, Skippy. %A0 I also worked at Langley, behind armed guards, badge-key entry barriers, and combination locked doors securing entire office suites, and at other secure facilities in the No. Virginia area. %A0Also trained in secure locations across the USA, to include facilities controlled by other govt agencies.

But here's the real hole in your argument: %A0 Camp David has max level physical and document security protocols. %A0Why? %A0Because Presidents occasionally handle matters of state there. %A0 %A0When LBJ was alive, his ranch had all that. Why? %A0Because he occasionally handled matters of state there. %A0 Same for Carter's residence. %A0Reagan's ranch. %A0Bush 41's Houston home. %A0Bush 43's ranch in Crawford. %A0

Need I go on?

in 2016, MAL was, like every other personal residence/retreat of a newly elected POTUS, retro-fitted with all necessary upgrades to make secure the sitting President of the United States and any official functions he performed there. %A0 Those remain in place after that POTUS leave office, with amendments to reflect reduced communication needs, USSS staffing, etc....

Don't be a doofus. %A0 The argument "MAL is insecure" is quite possibly the weakest argument you could make. %A0You literally do not know enough to realize how much you do not know.

---

You sure do know a lot. Even more than the DOJ lawyers running the investigation, apparently. Here's what they said, as quoted in the affidavit:

Quote:

---

As I previously indicated to you, Mar-a-Lago does not include a secure location authorized for the storage of classified information. As such, it appears that since the time classified documents were removed from the secure facilities at the White House and moved to Mar-a-Lago on or around January 20, 2021, they have not been handled in an appropriate manner or stored in an appropriate location.

---

You also told me that no access to MAL happens without Secret Service approval. I guess you didn't tell those doofuses in the Secret Service:

Quote:

---

The Secret Service said when Trump was president that it does not determine who is granted access to the club, but does do physical screenings to make sure no one brings in prohibited items, and further screening for guests in proximity to the president and other protectees.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-mar-a-lago-security-nightmare-that-housed-classified-documents-2022-08-13/

---

Reminds me of that Navy v. Egan case we were talking about earlier, where the court said Congress could limit the president's classification power. Turns out the court was wrong because...well, because you said so! And to think of all the time I wasted in school, when I could have been here, studying at your feet.

---

well done on the selective and misleading explanation of Egan.

And equally selective and misleading on the explanation of security at MAL. %A0Secret Service does not protect the club. %A0It protects the residence, which was a secure facility 18 months ago. %A0 No one ever expressed outrage that Presidential business was transacted there during Trump's term. %A0 Did they? %A0Did we miss it somehow? %A0 So tell us what changed. %A0 Be specific. %A0Prove your work.

---

Actually there were concerns even during his presidency. I posted this article a few pages back. Remarkably, the affidavit concluded that no space within the premises has been authorized for storage of classified information at least since the end of FPOTUS' presidential administration on January 20, 2021. As for specific measures, those would likely be found in the redacted parts of the affidavit. I'm sure your background would allow you to speculate profusely on the details. I will leave that to you. What matters in this discussion is that MAL is not a secure location for document storage purposes and hasn't been for quite some time.

---

the answer you should have provided is this: they removed the safes where classified documents were stored during the Trump Presidency.

Classified materials must be stored behind a combination lock, protected by USG physical perimeter security. That's why NARA requested after their visit in Februrary 2022 that a lock be placed on the door to the room where the boxes were stored. And that request was fulfilled. The SS perimeter security has never left. So, technically, the MAL residence was at the pre-20Jan2020 standard at the time of the raid with respect to storage of classified materials. It had a designated room with a combination lock in a facility protected by armed USG personnel.

So the violation in question is about storage of declassified documents being stored outside of a classified safe in an area otherwise meeting standards for storage of classified material.

Obviously, it was therefore necessary to send FBI agents to raid the home of political opponent during an election.

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"Behind a combination lock protected by armed security" is not a standard that exists in any regulation I've seen. The Defense Department, State Department, and NARA all generally require locked containers. There are other methods, but there's no reason to think any of them were in use, especially since the DOJ clearly determined otherwise. They requested that a lock be placed on the door because they wanted to ensure, as far as possible, that nothing was moved. Now, of course, it appears that quite a bit was moved in order to frustrate the recovery effort. As for declassifying the documents, there's no evidence that happened except for Trump's scattershot remarks, which every knowledgeable witness so far has bluntly contradicted. He says nothing about it in his court filings, which should tell you something. It's the same tactic he used with his bogus voter fraud claims -- play it up in the media when you know it won't fly in court.

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Au contraire. It is the standard. An office suite at Langley does not, rpt does not have locked containers. It has a locked door. The locked door turns the entire office suite into a vault....a container. (I mean, I could go into a LOT more detail...) A lock on a door turns a room into a "locked container" on every floor of every office building in the entire intelligence community in WDC. NOBODY working in those office files away classified documents into combo-locked file safe containers if the office suite door is protected by a combination lock. You don't have to. It's not necessary. They leave them laying about openly right on top of their desks when they leave for the day. Big piles of classified documents in inboxes, multiple stacks on top the desk, at every desk in the suite. That is one of the joys of working at Hqs rather than the field. The security procedure for the last guy out of a Hqs suite is to close the door good & hard and spin the lock. No need to take 30 minutes or more to check behind desks, cabinets, printers (the place where most security violations occur), in every drawer, etc.... It was onerous enough duty abroad we had a duty schedule for it, so that no one person would have to bear all the risk for missing a security violation that would get found the next morning. Working overseas is waaaaay more complicated on security issues than what the REMFs at Hqs had to deal with.

Bottom line is, a combination lock on a door in a facility with perimenter protection by USSS is effectively the standard. For that reason, you will not see "bad storage" as part of any charges.

You really do not understand how much you do not know on this subject, but it doesn't affect your arguments because I'm the only person here who knows how full of **** you are talking about classification standards and I can't go further thanks to....classification.

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Well, you've convinced me beyond a doubt now. You definitely do know how silly you're talking, and you must be doing it on purpose. Like I said, stop misleading these poor folks. They may not know better, but you and I do.

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Well there you have it. Sam posturing next to Whiterock for legitimacy. Isn't that sweet.

whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam and Oso have completely bought into the Hate.

They are too far down the road to hell for them to consider a course correction.

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"You should post less on this subject until you can better control your emotions."

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Front-runner for Ironic Post of the Year.

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Right you are. It's an Oldbear quote

HuMcK said:

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whiterock said:

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HuMcK said:

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All of that may be well and good...except that we know they found classified documents outside of that room you call secure. Now we also know that they also found around 50 empty folders (!) with classification markings.

There just is no way to spin this, other than admitting Trump royally fcked up.

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50 empty folders with classification markings?

So I put a Top Secret label on a manila folder and now it's covered by the espionage act?

Seriously?

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You damn well better have an acceptable explanation for where the docs that used to be in those folders are now, because if not then yes, that could open one up to prosecution for espionage. Especially if one had been being caught lying about returning classified docs not even 3 weeks ago.

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Don't you have that backwards? They have to proof there were docs there in first place.

RMF5630 said:

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HuMcK said:

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whiterock said:

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HuMcK said:

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All of that may be well and good...except that we know they found classified documents outside of that room you call secure. Now we also know that they also found around 50 empty folders (!) with classification markings.

There just is no way to spin this, other than admitting Trump royally fcked up.

---

50 empty folders with classification markings?

So I put a Top Secret label on a manila folder and now it's covered by the espionage act?

Seriously?

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You damn well better have an acceptable explanation for where the docs that used to be in those folders are now, because if not then yes, that could open one up to prosecution for espionage. Especially if one had been being caught lying about returning classified docs not even 3 weeks ago.

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Don't you have that backwards? They have to proof there were docs there in first place.

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So we now have the "DJT was just collecting the top-secret jackets defense"...

Seriously, I assume (something I do rarely with government work) that Investigators will be able to identify at some point the documents that were distributed to the Former President and are still missing. It might also be possible that missing documents might be sequenced to the jackets. It would seem to me that NARA, DOJ, intelligence officers everywhere, are more than a little embarrassed by the loss of these documents. Trump could still broker a deal if he produces the missing ones--the ones he hasn't flushed, of course.

Osodecentx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam and Oso have completely bought into the Hate.

They are too far down the road to hell for them to consider a course correction.

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"You should post less on this subject until you can better control your emotions."

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Advice you should have taken, Oso.

Glad you remember the words, but they won't help you unless you learn from them.

Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam and Oso have completely bought into the Hate.

They are too far down the road to hell for them to consider a course correction.

---

"You should post less on this subject until you can better control your emotions."

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Front-runner for Ironic Post of the Year.

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Right you are. It's advice from Oldbear which I ignore and try to turn into a sneer.

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Corrected for accuracy.

Osodecentx said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam and Oso have completely bought into the Hate.

They are too far down the road to hell for them to consider a course correction.

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"You should post less on this subject until you can better control your emotions."

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So should we all! In the words of my Cardiologist, "Maybe a little less time on the R&P board."

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I have several pages of Old's on-target quips. When he gets too close to proving me wrong again I trot them out to try to deflect and squirm my way out of the mess.

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Again, corrected for accuracy.

xxx yyy said:

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RMF5630 said:

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HuMcK said:

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whiterock said:

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HuMcK said:

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All of that may be well and good...except that we know they found classified documents outside of that room you call secure. Now we also know that they also found around 50 empty folders (!) with classification markings.

There just is no way to spin this, other than admitting Trump royally fcked up.

---

50 empty folders with classification markings?

So I put a Top Secret label on a manila folder and now it's covered by the espionage act?

Seriously?

---

You damn well better have an acceptable explanation for where the docs that used to be in those folders are now, because if not then yes, that could open one up to prosecution for espionage. Especially if one had been being caught lying about returning classified docs not even 3 weeks ago.

---

Don't you have that backwards? They have to proof there were docs there in first place.

---

So we now have the "DJT was just collecting the top-secret jackets defense"...

Seriously, I assume (something I do rarely with government work) that Investigators will be able to identify at some point the documents that were distributed to the Former President and are still missing. It might also be possible that missing documents might be sequenced to the jackets. It would seem to me that NARA, DOJ, intelligence officers everywhere, are more than a little embarrassed by the loss of these documents. Trump could still broker a deal if he produces the missing ones--the ones he hasn't flushed, of course.

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It is called an inventory. A reconciliation between what classified info was provided, what they have and what is still classified.

Folders don't mean anything, except if your Trump than you have to prove you don't have them! You guys are seriously wanting to prosecute for what he doesn't have? With no proof of what he did?

You see this is the problem, because it is ******* Trump the burden of proof is on him, not the Government. The Government doesn't seem to know what is missing, who had it or what was done with it. This is an S2 disaster, not a Trump disaster an intelligence community disaster to lose control of docs like this. They have no idea what they are looking for!

whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Rawhide said:

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Golem said:

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HuMcK said:

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The more detailed inventory just filed and released notes that 48 empty folders marked classified were found, along with 23 empty folders marked "return to staff secretary/military aide". These are presumably not cover folders for the other classified docs found, as those had their own cover sheets attached.

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Were the folders smoking?

Just a little enlightenment for you…things that are printed on paper today are digital and remain digital somewhere else. This is what accounts for the mass number of burn bags and shredders in particular government facilities, without violating rules regarding retention of those same documents. The documents that are destroyed are not actually destroyed. Only a copy of them is destroyed. What's more, it's no crime to destroy copies of unclassified documents….if the empty folders indicate that even happened.

The walls are STILL not closing in. Your wet dreams are not going to come true. Change your shorts and get back to mopping the floor.

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Maybe the gov't can spend another 35 mil for a 3 year investigation into the Trump docs and then only come up empty handed - again.

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There you go. Let's talk about Trump!!
Midterms are coming, Proud Boys need pardons

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How many pardons did Trump issue when he was in office to the Jan 6th people or any Proud Boy?

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Do you think he should? Midterms are coming. Let's talk about Proud Boy pardons instead of Biden

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Trump isn't. You are. So who's really risking the mid-terms?

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Trump is. FBI as vicious monsters? Calling out an agent by name who had nothing to do with the execution of the warrant?

Trump Lashes Out in First Rally Since F.B.I. Search
Donald J. Trump and President Biden have both made recent appearances in Pennsylvania, one of the key states in November's midterm elections.
WILKES-BARRE TOWNSHIP, Pa. In his first rally since his home was searched by the F.B.I. on Aug. 8, former President Donald J. Trump on Saturday lashed out at President Biden and federal agents, calling his Democratic rival "an enemy of the state" and the F.B.I. and the Department of Justice "vicious monsters."
In an aggrieved and combative speech in Pennsylvania, Mr. Trump stoked anger against law enforcement even as the F.B.I. and federal officials have faced an increase in threats following the search of Mr. Trump's residence to retrieve classified documents.
Mr. Trump's remarks echoed the chain of similar, escalating attacks he wrote on his social media website this week, including posts that singled out one agent by name. That agent has retired, and his lawyers have said he did not have a role in the search.
Although he faced criticism for the tirades, and some Republicans have warned about the political dangers in attacking law enforcement, the former president signaled he would yield no ground.

Osodecentx said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Why is he talking about pardons and supporting some of them financially?

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Let's be clear, he's using donor or RNC money, not opening up his wallet for them.

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Good point. Dear Leader wouldn't use his own money for the dumbasses who heeded his call

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They're still giving the millionaire money, and not campaign donations either. Stunning.

quash said:

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Osodecentx said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Why is he talking about pardons and supporting some of them financially?

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Let's be clear, he's using donor or RNC money, not opening up his wallet for them.

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Good point. Dear Leader wouldn't use his own money for the dumbasses who heeded his call

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They're still giving the millionaire money, and not campaign donations either. Stunning.

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slick burn there.. calling Trump a millionaire instead of a Billionaire.

4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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Osodecentx said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Why is he talking about pardons and supporting some of them financially?

---

Let's be clear, he's using donor or RNC money, not opening up his wallet for them.

---

Good point. Dear Leader wouldn't use his own money for the dumbasses who heeded his call

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They're still giving the millionaire money, and not campaign donations either. Stunning.

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slick burn there.. calling Trump a millionaire instead of a Billionaire.

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Homage to a guy I read about over the weekend:

Dude goes on some Cowboys site and says something about the Boys only winning 4 playoff games in 20 years. So that somebody will have to correct it to 2 games..

quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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Osodecentx said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Why is he talking about pardons and supporting some of them financially?

---

Let's be clear, he's using donor or RNC money, not opening up his wallet for them.

---

Good point. Dear Leader wouldn't use his own money for the dumbasses who heeded his call

---

They're still giving the millionaire money, and not campaign donations either. Stunning.

---

slick burn there.. calling Trump a millionaire instead of a Billionaire.

---

Homage to a guy I read about over the weekend:

Dude goes on some Cowboys site and says something about the Boys only winning 4 playoff games in 20 years. So that somebody will have to correct it to 2 games..

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No, if you had called Trump a trillionaire, causing his supporters to admit he is MERELY billionaire, then you would have used it correctly. You did the opposite of the Dallas troll. (Though that Dallas troll is hilarious in doing what they did)

Wangchung said:

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quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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Osodecentx said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Why is he talking about pardons and supporting some of them financially?

---

Let's be clear, he's using donor or RNC money, not opening up his wallet for them.

---

Good point. Dear Leader wouldn't use his own money for the dumbasses who heeded his call

---

They're still giving the millionaire money, and not campaign donations either. Stunning.

---

slick burn there.. calling Trump a millionaire instead of a Billionaire.

---

Homage to a guy I read about over the weekend:

Dude goes on some Cowboys site and says something about the Boys only winning 4 playoff games in 20 years. So that somebody will have to correct it to 2 games..

---

No, if you had called Trump a trillionaire, causing his supporters to admit he is MERELY billionaire, then you would have used it correctly. You did the opposite of the Dallas troll. (Though that Dallas troll is hilarious in doing what they did)

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I said homage, not imitation.

Fair enough, an homage by doing the opposite. Clever?

If Trump was selling the details of Israel's nuclear program to the Saudis it's going to cause a very funny schism between a bunch of terrible people https://t.co/EbG7eA8SIq pic.twitter.com/foyysduBCW

— Joe (@JoePostingg) September 7, 2022

Redbrickbear said:

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If Trump was selling the details of Israel's nuclear program to the Saudis it's going to cause a very funny schism between a bunch of terrible people https://t.co/EbG7eA8SIq pic.twitter.com/foyysduBCW

— Joe (@JoePostingg) September 7, 2022

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drip drip drip.. we got a leak in the swamp!

Repeated illegal leaks from an honest and fair DOJ..

Oh? It's always projection with Trump.

Geoffrey S. Berman, who headed the Manhattan office, says in a book the Justice Department pushed cases, against John Kerry and others, to help Mr. Trump. https://t.co/os8Wk1KrNf

— Ben Pershing (@benpershing) September 8, 2022

HuMcK said:

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Oh? It's always projection with Trump.

Geoffrey S. Berman, who headed the Manhattan office, says in a book the Justice Department pushed cases, against John Kerry and others, to help Mr. Trump. https://t.co/os8Wk1KrNf

— Ben Pershing (@benpershing) September 8, 2022

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ahem....were any of them even investigated, much less prosecuted?

whiterock said:

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HuMcK said:

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Oh? It's always projection with Trump.

Geoffrey S. Berman, who headed the Manhattan office, says in a book the Justice Department pushed cases, against John Kerry and others, to help Mr. Trump. https://t.co/os8Wk1KrNf

— Ben Pershing (@benpershing) September 8, 2022

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ahem....were any of them even investigated, much less prosecuted?

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i remember that case, it was right after they locked Hillary up and before Trump murdered some random
Dude on 5th ave..

2 years later and people still trying to make money off Trump..

Has democracy been saved by the overdue library books being returned yet?

sung to Paint it Black:

I think I'll head on back and claim my rightful throne
And repaint the people's house in an Orange Tone

Take back my secret docs hidden in my storage
And head to Lowes and order up a paint that is Orange.....

- KKM

It's worse than that. DOJ is threatening the judge with going to the 11th Circuit unless they can continue the criminal inquisition on the basis of documents which they have already singled out. That defeats the whole point of a special master whose job is to do the singling out. https://t.co/jvJJZB8tV4

— Hans Mahncke (@HansMahncke) September 8, 2022

LOL, so now filing an appeal is "threatening the judge."