War with Iran?

134,896 Views | 2180 Replies | Last: 4 mo ago by whiterock
The_barBEARian
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Mothra said:

The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:



Correcting your erroneous positions is like shooting fish in a barrel. Let me help you, princess.

Boomers are 60-78 years old. If you are age 45-60, you are GenX - the demographic that now controls the country, and largely support Israel's fight against Islamic fundamentalists, according to polls.

Snowflakes/millennials are 29-44.

You are a really stupid person.

Oh nvm... my bad.

I didnt realize this was your way of showing affection.
You do realize you called me evil and wished death on me like 3-4 weeks ago, right? You've said it multiple times, only to say it again today.

Or is this your ADD acting up again? Mommy forget your dose of Ritalin?

When you start personally attacking me and my family, as you did 3-4 weeks ago, I respond in kind.

But its all good man.

You are a saint and I am a sinner.

I wish you nothing but good health, prosperity, and success in all your future endeavors!

I dont give a **** what anyone on this board thinks of me, but I also dont enjoy insulting other posters here. It's unpleasant and undignified.

So I apologize for calling you evil and questioning your vitality.
Assassin
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ATL Bear said:

Assassin said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ShooterTX said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Assassin said:

The_barBEARian said:

whiterock said:

The_barBEARian said:




Then why isnt he focused on issues concerning the citizens of New Jersey?
He is. LOTS of NJ citizens understand that supporting Israel is in our national interest.



Only two groups support Israel in America.

1) Religious Zealot Boomercons over 50

2) Jews

I highly doubt his district is majority old Boomers over 50 and Jews.

Several organizations and groups in the US actively support Israel, with varying focuses and levels of influence. These include prominent lobbying groups like AIPAC, religious organizations such as Christians United for Israel, and various Jewish organizations.
Here's a breakdown of some key pro-Israel groups:
Lobbying and Advocacy Groups:
American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC):
.
AIPAC is a major lobbying group that works to strengthen the US-Israel relationship and influence US policy in favor of Israel. It has a large grassroots network and a PAC that provides direct financial support to candidates who align with its agenda.
J Street:
.
While also pro-Israel, J Street advocates for a two-state solution and a more nuanced approach to US-Israel relations, often differing from AIPAC's stance.
Israel Allies Caucus:
.
This is a bipartisan group in the US House of Representatives that works to support Israel's security and fight against antisemitism and the BDS movement.
Jewish Organizations:
Various Jewish Federations and Community Relations Councils:
.
These groups work to advocate for Israel within their communities and engage in grassroots advocacy efforts.
Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations:
.
This organization brings together a wide range of Jewish groups to forge a unified front in support of Israel.
Zionist Organization of America, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress:
.
These are older, more established Zionist organizations that have historically played a role in advocating for Israel and Jewish causes.
Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism:
.
This organization represents the Reform Jewish movement and engages in advocacy for Israel and other social justice issues.
Jewish National Fund-USA:
.
This organization focuses on supporting the land and people of Israel through various projects and initiatives.
Religious Groups:
Christians United for Israel (CUFI):
.
This is a large evangelical Christian organization that strongly supports Israel based on religious beliefs about the importance of the Jewish state.
Other Evangelical Groups:
.
Many evangelical Christians believe that the continued existence of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy and are strong supporters.
Other Groups:
Washington Institute for Near East Policy:
.
This think tank conducts research and analysis on the Middle East, often with a focus on US-Israel relations.
Various civil rights groups:
.
While some civil rights groups advocate for Palestinian rights and criticize Israeli policies, others may support Israel's security and right to exist



I've posted numerous polls that show that when you look at Millennials only about 25% support Israel.

Right at about 50/50 among Millennial Republicans.... and less than 20% of Millennial Democrats.

Israel favorability only gets worse with Gen Z.
Well, if Gen X and Millennials don't support, we should just walk away from our positions in the Middle East. Probably Asia, Europe and South America too...

But, who do those Generations support, besides themselves? Curious, what do those Generations support besides a shorter work weeks, less working hours, Government paying for them and "mental health days"? You are really good at what you don't like, what do you support that isn't self-driven?





Millenials and Gen Z are also the largest supporters of Hamas. They have been successfully brainwashed by the left into thinking that Muslims are the good guys. Very sad.
They are the generations that chant "from the river to the sea", and wave terrorist (Palestinian) flags on American holidays. They also have the largest percentages who believe in climate change BS, LGBT nonsense, and America is an evil, racist nation.

We have a lot of work to do with those kids. We need to undo ALL the lies, not just the pro-hamas/anti-jew lies.
Pretty sure bar-bearian isn't going to be helpful in spreading the truth... he is a zealot when it comes to the leftist lies about Jews.


Epstein wasnt working for Mossad?

I have always been the most conservative member of this board when it comes to immigration.

I want net negative immigration, a freeze on H1-Bs, ending birthright citizenship, and revoking citizenship of naturalized citizens and their anchor babies who refuse to integrate into American society.

I am the only one with the temerity to say we should adopt the IDF approach and use lethal force at our borders against those who resist or attack our border agents.

Support for Israel isnt a left vs right issue.

It those with common sense vs those who have been indoctrinated into a Ted Cruz religious heresy... that Satanyahu is some divine chosen one or that "blessing Israel" will do anything other than make America poorer and less free.
When did supporting Israel to defend themselves and to allow the US a presence in the Middle East turn to an immigration talk???

Congress should spend a lot more time on immigration and next to zero time supporting Israel yet we see the inverse.

The only thing Congress did the last two years of Biden Presidency was send money to Israel and Ukraine.

They did nothing to secure our borders or fix the broken immigration system.


The two are not connected. Congress should spent more time on immigration reform. Israel is one of our best allies and we should be supporting them. We should be doing both.

Well this is the problem Boomers are facing... the keep telling younger Americans this but cant seem to come up with a good argument for why this is true.
You are very similar to the guy in the Catholic religion discussion. Asks questions, we provide him the information and links and he disregards them. This is the 2nd time I have linked why Israel is one of the US's top allies. I can go with a VARIETY of articles, but I chose one from Belgium. I figured you would believe a Euro-article before a US Veteran that is older than you or any of the numerous people on this thread with actual experience with Israel...

So, try this one. It is pretty much the same stuff..

Why does the US support Israel? Key reasons explained



That article doesnt address the primary problem that Israel doesnt actually pay for anything. All of this is American dollars being used to fund R&D and hardware and it is all paid for by the American tax payer.

Does the benefit of jobs gained in the defense industry offset all the jobs lost in other areas of our economy due to increased debt and inflation?
That is a bit of an exaggeration, the US does provide Israel with aid. No doubt. I would say it is a symbiotic relationship, as the US provides money, protection and diplomatic clout. Israel provides an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, a pipeline of innovation and a democracy in the Middle East (was important to past generations, not so much with younger I guess).
Democracy in the Middle East was important to past generations only in the sense that they were terrified of it and did everything they could to stop it. Iran tried to establish democracy twice in the 20th century, once under the Qajar dynasty and again under the Pahlavi dynasty, but the West always prevented it. The mullahs, who weren't especially fond of the idea either, lent their assistance and grew more powerful and more radical as a result. There was another period of semi-democratic reform in the late 90s and early 2000s, but it mostly fizzled out after Bush's "axis of evil" speech.
Wrong. The Middle East since Sykes-Picot has been an autocratic mosh pit of either Arab Nationalism or Islamism, neither of which fit well with democracy or freedom. It is plagued by this still today, and retains an inherent ideological conflict with the West.
He could be thinking of a Democracy of One... you get to call all the shots if you are the Shah or Ayatolla
I just think Sam likes to take pot shots at America whether warranted or not.
Dang liberals.
Facebook Groups at; Memories of Dallas, Mem of Texas, Mem of Football in Texas, Mem Texas Music and Through a Texas Lens. Come visit! Over 100,000 members and 100,000 regular visitors
Sam Lowry
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ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ShooterTX said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Assassin said:

The_barBEARian said:

whiterock said:

The_barBEARian said:




Then why isnt he focused on issues concerning the citizens of New Jersey?
He is. LOTS of NJ citizens understand that supporting Israel is in our national interest.



Only two groups support Israel in America.

1) Religious Zealot Boomercons over 50

2) Jews

I highly doubt his district is majority old Boomers over 50 and Jews.

Several organizations and groups in the US actively support Israel, with varying focuses and levels of influence. These include prominent lobbying groups like AIPAC, religious organizations such as Christians United for Israel, and various Jewish organizations.
Here's a breakdown of some key pro-Israel groups:
Lobbying and Advocacy Groups:
American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC):
.
AIPAC is a major lobbying group that works to strengthen the US-Israel relationship and influence US policy in favor of Israel. It has a large grassroots network and a PAC that provides direct financial support to candidates who align with its agenda.
J Street:
.
While also pro-Israel, J Street advocates for a two-state solution and a more nuanced approach to US-Israel relations, often differing from AIPAC's stance.
Israel Allies Caucus:
.
This is a bipartisan group in the US House of Representatives that works to support Israel's security and fight against antisemitism and the BDS movement.
Jewish Organizations:
Various Jewish Federations and Community Relations Councils:
.
These groups work to advocate for Israel within their communities and engage in grassroots advocacy efforts.
Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations:
.
This organization brings together a wide range of Jewish groups to forge a unified front in support of Israel.
Zionist Organization of America, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress:
.
These are older, more established Zionist organizations that have historically played a role in advocating for Israel and Jewish causes.
Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism:
.
This organization represents the Reform Jewish movement and engages in advocacy for Israel and other social justice issues.
Jewish National Fund-USA:
.
This organization focuses on supporting the land and people of Israel through various projects and initiatives.
Religious Groups:
Christians United for Israel (CUFI):
.
This is a large evangelical Christian organization that strongly supports Israel based on religious beliefs about the importance of the Jewish state.
Other Evangelical Groups:
.
Many evangelical Christians believe that the continued existence of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy and are strong supporters.
Other Groups:
Washington Institute for Near East Policy:
.
This think tank conducts research and analysis on the Middle East, often with a focus on US-Israel relations.
Various civil rights groups:
.
While some civil rights groups advocate for Palestinian rights and criticize Israeli policies, others may support Israel's security and right to exist



I've posted numerous polls that show that when you look at Millennials only about 25% support Israel.

Right at about 50/50 among Millennial Republicans.... and less than 20% of Millennial Democrats.

Israel favorability only gets worse with Gen Z.
Well, if Gen X and Millennials don't support, we should just walk away from our positions in the Middle East. Probably Asia, Europe and South America too...

But, who do those Generations support, besides themselves? Curious, what do those Generations support besides a shorter work weeks, less working hours, Government paying for them and "mental health days"? You are really good at what you don't like, what do you support that isn't self-driven?





Millenials and Gen Z are also the largest supporters of Hamas. They have been successfully brainwashed by the left into thinking that Muslims are the good guys. Very sad.
They are the generations that chant "from the river to the sea", and wave terrorist (Palestinian) flags on American holidays. They also have the largest percentages who believe in climate change BS, LGBT nonsense, and America is an evil, racist nation.

We have a lot of work to do with those kids. We need to undo ALL the lies, not just the pro-hamas/anti-jew lies.
Pretty sure bar-bearian isn't going to be helpful in spreading the truth... he is a zealot when it comes to the leftist lies about Jews.


Epstein wasnt working for Mossad?

I have always been the most conservative member of this board when it comes to immigration.

I want net negative immigration, a freeze on H1-Bs, ending birthright citizenship, and revoking citizenship of naturalized citizens and their anchor babies who refuse to integrate into American society.

I am the only one with the temerity to say we should adopt the IDF approach and use lethal force at our borders against those who resist or attack our border agents.

Support for Israel isnt a left vs right issue.

It those with common sense vs those who have been indoctrinated into a Ted Cruz religious heresy... that Satanyahu is some divine chosen one or that "blessing Israel" will do anything other than make America poorer and less free.
When did supporting Israel to defend themselves and to allow the US a presence in the Middle East turn to an immigration talk???

Congress should spend a lot more time on immigration and next to zero time supporting Israel yet we see the inverse.

The only thing Congress did the last two years of Biden Presidency was send money to Israel and Ukraine.

They did nothing to secure our borders or fix the broken immigration system.


The two are not connected. Congress should spent more time on immigration reform. Israel is one of our best allies and we should be supporting them. We should be doing both.

Well this is the problem Boomers are facing... the keep telling younger Americans this but cant seem to come up with a good argument for why this is true.
You are very similar to the guy in the Catholic religion discussion. Asks questions, we provide him the information and links and he disregards them. This is the 2nd time I have linked why Israel is one of the US's top allies. I can go with a VARIETY of articles, but I chose one from Belgium. I figured you would believe a Euro-article before a US Veteran that is older than you or any of the numerous people on this thread with actual experience with Israel...

So, try this one. It is pretty much the same stuff..

Why does the US support Israel? Key reasons explained



That article doesnt address the primary problem that Israel doesnt actually pay for anything. All of this is American dollars being used to fund R&D and hardware and it is all paid for by the American tax payer.

Does the benefit of jobs gained in the defense industry offset all the jobs lost in other areas of our economy due to increased debt and inflation?
That is a bit of an exaggeration, the US does provide Israel with aid. No doubt. I would say it is a symbiotic relationship, as the US provides money, protection and diplomatic clout. Israel provides an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, a pipeline of innovation and a democracy in the Middle East (was important to past generations, not so much with younger I guess).
Democracy in the Middle East was important to past generations only in the sense that they were terrified of it and did everything they could to stop it. Iran tried to establish democracy twice in the 20th century, once under the Qajar dynasty and again under the Pahlavi dynasty, but the West always prevented it. The mullahs, who weren't especially fond of the idea either, lent their assistance and grew more powerful and more radical as a result. There was another period of semi-democratic reform in the late 90s and early 2000s, but it mostly fizzled out after Bush's "axis of evil" speech.
Wrong. The Middle East since Sykes-Picot has been an autocratic mosh pit of either Arab Nationalism or Islamism, neither of which fit well with democracy or freedom. It is plagued by this still today, and retains an inherent ideological conflict with the West.
This only makes sense if you understand "democracy" to mean Western hegemony (which of course is exactly how the West understands it).
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ShooterTX said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Assassin said:

The_barBEARian said:

whiterock said:

The_barBEARian said:




Then why isnt he focused on issues concerning the citizens of New Jersey?
He is. LOTS of NJ citizens understand that supporting Israel is in our national interest.



Only two groups support Israel in America.

1) Religious Zealot Boomercons over 50

2) Jews

I highly doubt his district is majority old Boomers over 50 and Jews.

Several organizations and groups in the US actively support Israel, with varying focuses and levels of influence. These include prominent lobbying groups like AIPAC, religious organizations such as Christians United for Israel, and various Jewish organizations.
Here's a breakdown of some key pro-Israel groups:
Lobbying and Advocacy Groups:
American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC):
.
AIPAC is a major lobbying group that works to strengthen the US-Israel relationship and influence US policy in favor of Israel. It has a large grassroots network and a PAC that provides direct financial support to candidates who align with its agenda.
J Street:
.
While also pro-Israel, J Street advocates for a two-state solution and a more nuanced approach to US-Israel relations, often differing from AIPAC's stance.
Israel Allies Caucus:
.
This is a bipartisan group in the US House of Representatives that works to support Israel's security and fight against antisemitism and the BDS movement.
Jewish Organizations:
Various Jewish Federations and Community Relations Councils:
.
These groups work to advocate for Israel within their communities and engage in grassroots advocacy efforts.
Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations:
.
This organization brings together a wide range of Jewish groups to forge a unified front in support of Israel.
Zionist Organization of America, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress:
.
These are older, more established Zionist organizations that have historically played a role in advocating for Israel and Jewish causes.
Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism:
.
This organization represents the Reform Jewish movement and engages in advocacy for Israel and other social justice issues.
Jewish National Fund-USA:
.
This organization focuses on supporting the land and people of Israel through various projects and initiatives.
Religious Groups:
Christians United for Israel (CUFI):
.
This is a large evangelical Christian organization that strongly supports Israel based on religious beliefs about the importance of the Jewish state.
Other Evangelical Groups:
.
Many evangelical Christians believe that the continued existence of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy and are strong supporters.
Other Groups:
Washington Institute for Near East Policy:
.
This think tank conducts research and analysis on the Middle East, often with a focus on US-Israel relations.
Various civil rights groups:
.
While some civil rights groups advocate for Palestinian rights and criticize Israeli policies, others may support Israel's security and right to exist



I've posted numerous polls that show that when you look at Millennials only about 25% support Israel.

Right at about 50/50 among Millennial Republicans.... and less than 20% of Millennial Democrats.

Israel favorability only gets worse with Gen Z.
Well, if Gen X and Millennials don't support, we should just walk away from our positions in the Middle East. Probably Asia, Europe and South America too...

But, who do those Generations support, besides themselves? Curious, what do those Generations support besides a shorter work weeks, less working hours, Government paying for them and "mental health days"? You are really good at what you don't like, what do you support that isn't self-driven?





Millenials and Gen Z are also the largest supporters of Hamas. They have been successfully brainwashed by the left into thinking that Muslims are the good guys. Very sad.
They are the generations that chant "from the river to the sea", and wave terrorist (Palestinian) flags on American holidays. They also have the largest percentages who believe in climate change BS, LGBT nonsense, and America is an evil, racist nation.

We have a lot of work to do with those kids. We need to undo ALL the lies, not just the pro-hamas/anti-jew lies.
Pretty sure bar-bearian isn't going to be helpful in spreading the truth... he is a zealot when it comes to the leftist lies about Jews.


Epstein wasnt working for Mossad?

I have always been the most conservative member of this board when it comes to immigration.

I want net negative immigration, a freeze on H1-Bs, ending birthright citizenship, and revoking citizenship of naturalized citizens and their anchor babies who refuse to integrate into American society.

I am the only one with the temerity to say we should adopt the IDF approach and use lethal force at our borders against those who resist or attack our border agents.

Support for Israel isnt a left vs right issue.

It those with common sense vs those who have been indoctrinated into a Ted Cruz religious heresy... that Satanyahu is some divine chosen one or that "blessing Israel" will do anything other than make America poorer and less free.
When did supporting Israel to defend themselves and to allow the US a presence in the Middle East turn to an immigration talk???

Congress should spend a lot more time on immigration and next to zero time supporting Israel yet we see the inverse.

The only thing Congress did the last two years of Biden Presidency was send money to Israel and Ukraine.

They did nothing to secure our borders or fix the broken immigration system.


The two are not connected. Congress should spent more time on immigration reform. Israel is one of our best allies and we should be supporting them. We should be doing both.

Well this is the problem Boomers are facing... the keep telling younger Americans this but cant seem to come up with a good argument for why this is true.
You are very similar to the guy in the Catholic religion discussion. Asks questions, we provide him the information and links and he disregards them. This is the 2nd time I have linked why Israel is one of the US's top allies. I can go with a VARIETY of articles, but I chose one from Belgium. I figured you would believe a Euro-article before a US Veteran that is older than you or any of the numerous people on this thread with actual experience with Israel...

So, try this one. It is pretty much the same stuff..

Why does the US support Israel? Key reasons explained



That article doesnt address the primary problem that Israel doesnt actually pay for anything. All of this is American dollars being used to fund R&D and hardware and it is all paid for by the American tax payer.

Does the benefit of jobs gained in the defense industry offset all the jobs lost in other areas of our economy due to increased debt and inflation?
That is a bit of an exaggeration, the US does provide Israel with aid. No doubt. I would say it is a symbiotic relationship, as the US provides money, protection and diplomatic clout. Israel provides an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, a pipeline of innovation and a democracy in the Middle East (was important to past generations, not so much with younger I guess).
Democracy in the Middle East was important to past generations only in the sense that they were terrified of it and did everything they could to stop it. Iran tried to establish democracy twice in the 20th century, once under the Qajar dynasty and again under the Pahlavi dynasty, but the West always prevented it. The mullahs, who weren't especially fond of the idea either, lent their assistance and grew more powerful and more radical as a result. There was another period of semi-democratic reform in the late 90s and early 2000s, but it mostly fizzled out after Bush's "axis of evil" speech.
Wrong. The Middle East since Sykes-Picot has been an autocratic mosh pit of either Arab Nationalism or Islamism, neither of which fit well with democracy or freedom. It is plagued by this still today, and retains an inherent ideological conflict with the West.
This only makes sense if you understand "democracy" to mean Western hegemony (which of course is exactly how the West understands it).
Well, we have seen Middle East Democracy...




Is that the type you are talking about?

or Russian?

Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Democracy in Iran looked more like this.

What your photos show is what we considered the lesser of two evils.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
historian said:

UNRWA was allied to Hamas. Some of them participated in the October 7 attacks. Some guarded hostages for months. They were terrorists and legitimate targets.

The Israelis had good reason to limit international journalists access to the war zone. They are often openly supportive of Hamas and routinely parrot their lies uncritically. The fascist media are propagandists just like they are here on domestic issues.
UNRWA has, or had, some 13,000 workers in Gaza. Declaring open season on the organization because a handful of them were allied with Hamas (and were fired after an investigation) is the definition of extremism.
The_barBEARian
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ShooterTX said:

Doc Holliday said:




I agree... regime change is pointless.
We should just nuke every large city in Iran, and call it a day.
The Iranians will never seek peace with the West or with Israel... so let's just end it already.
If Iran was nuked off the planet tomorrow.... would you really notice any difference? Really?

You are giving that "angry typing in my mommy's basement" vibe here...
Realitybites
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If the Iranian leadership is full of suicidal 12er Shias who can't wait to trigger the apocalypse, why was their response to our bombing of their facilities de-escalatory? Why didn't they race towards weaponizing uranium and stop at 60%? Why have the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks on US citizens been carried out by Sunnis?

This long form 3 hour interview will tell you a great many things you won't hear on Fox News.
FLBear5630
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Sam Lowry said:

Democracy in Iran looked more like this.

What your photos show is what we considered the lesser of two evils.
Sam, he was appointed. Not elected. When dismissed, he performed a coup and forced the Shah out of the Nation. You also leave out the little part that the Shah was in power since WW2 and was there before Mosddegh. You make it sound like the CIA just picked someone.

You are using Mosaddegh as an example of Democracy?? He nationalized industry and oil, as well as pardoning the guy who assassinated Razmarra! The Prime Minister before him.

So, yes. Just like the ones that I showed. Cute with the picture of his family walking, he was just as cruel, corrupt and communist as any of them. Stalin would have been proud.

Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Democracy in Iran looked more like this.

What your photos show is what we considered the lesser of two evils.
Sam, he was appointed. Not elected. When dismissed, he performed a coup and forced the Shah out of the Nation. You also leave out the little part that the Shah was in power since WW2 and was there before Mosddegh. You make it sound like the CIA just picked someone.

You are using Mosaddegh as an example of Democracy?? He nationalized industry and oil, as well as pardoning the guy who assassinated Razmarra! The Prime Minister before him.

So, yes. Just like the ones that I showed. Cute with the picture of his family walking, he was just as cruel, corrupt and communist as any of them. Stalin would have been proud.


He was appointed by the shah and elected by the majlis, a legislative body chosen by popular vote. He nationalized the oil industry based on overwhelming support from the public, who believed Iran's oil should be controlled by Iran and not the West. This is why the West tends to frown on Iranian democracy.

Mossadegh was no communist. He never performed a coup or forced the shah out of the country. It was Mossadegh who was removed in a coup, imprisoned for three years, and put under house arrest until his death. To compare him with the cruel dictatorship that replaced him in Iran, let alone with Stalin, is beyond misguided.

FTR the photos I linked were not of Mossadegh. They are just an ordinary Iranian family of the time.

FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Democracy in Iran looked more like this.

What your photos show is what we considered the lesser of two evils.
Sam, he was appointed. Not elected. When dismissed, he performed a coup and forced the Shah out of the Nation. You also leave out the little part that the Shah was in power since WW2 and was there before Mosddegh. You make it sound like the CIA just picked someone.

You are using Mosaddegh as an example of Democracy?? He nationalized industry and oil, as well as pardoning the guy who assassinated Razmarra! The Prime Minister before him.

So, yes. Just like the ones that I showed. Cute with the picture of his family walking, he was just as cruel, corrupt and communist as any of them. Stalin would have been proud.


He was appointed by the shah and elected by the majlis, a legislative body chosen by popular vote. He nationalized the oil industry based on overwhelming support from the public, who believed Iran's oil should be controlled by Iran and not the West. This is why the West tends to frown on Iranian democracy.

Mossadegh was no communist. He never performed a coup or forced the shah out of the country. It was Mossadegh who was removed in a coup, imprisoned for three years, and put under house arrest until his death. To compare him with the cruel dictatorship that replaced him in Iran, let alone with Stalin, is beyond misguided.

FTR the photos I linked were not of Mossadegh. They are just an ordinary Iranian family of the time.




I worked for an Iranian owned firm, was employee #4. Know engineers they got out of Iran. My bosses family has to do leave in 78. Also worked for a SGT that was in Tehran in 78 and had to leave. Your description is not consistent with people that were there. They view the Shah as the rightful ruler and Mossagedah as a usurper that betrayed.
Porteroso
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whiterock said:

Porteroso said:

whiterock said:

Porteroso said:

whiterock said:

Porteroso said:

whiterock said:

Porteroso said:

whiterock said:

muddybrazos said:

Mothra said:

muddybrazos said:

Mothra said:

Realitybites said:

We saw the stick, perhaps we are going to see the carrot.

" President Donald Trump is considering a $30 billion plan to help Iran develop a civilian nuclear program as an incentive to return to full-fledged talks over a nuclear deal, CNN reported on Thursday, citing sources.

Washington and its Middle East partners have been holding secret negotiations with Tehran, even as Iran and Israel exchanged strikes earlier this month, four sources familiar with the matter told the network.

The US reportedly has not dropped its key demand that Iran agree to zero enrichment of uranium, which has been a red line for Tehran. To sweeten the deal, however, Washington is said to have floated several incentives.

These include an estimated $20-30 billion investment project in Iran's nuclear program for civilian energy purposes though the money would not come directly from the US, but rather from its Arab partners, the report claims.

Israel sought to kill Iran's Khamenei defense chief
Other incentives reportedly under consideration include easing some sanctions and allowing Iran access to approximately $6 billion in frozen funds currently held in foreign bank accounts,"

If this is accurate, this will be the most brilliant exercise in US foreign policy since Reagan spanked Khadaffi for the Pan Am bombing without getting involved in a regime change war.

But Bibi, AIPAC, and the neocons are going to have steam coming out of their ears.
Kind of like the chicken little's doom and gloom predictions of the US being "at war," and this being the end of America as we know it, I don't believe this for a second.
I dont know about end of America or the WW3 stuff but I still believe that this whole Iran situation is far from over and Israel will not quit until they do regime change there. I hope the war stuff doesnt escalate and drag us into it, though.
But your ilk was predicting all of the above.

You're kind of the boy who cried wolf.
No, not really. The majority of the MAGA base doesnt want any wars and Trump has been made aware of that so I think he is doing his best to avoid that situation. The war hawks like you and Mark Levin are pushing for all out ww3 so I hope your side ends up disappointed.
you are imputing to others what you need them to be rather than what they are, have said, etc...

No one here came remotely close to advocating an invasion of Iran. And one was never in the cards anyway. You are apparently not old enough to remember, the First Gulf War. It took us better part of FIVE MONTHS to get deployed to slice up Saddam's army in a few days. We requisitioned civilian sea lift. We requisitioned civilian airlift. Moved an entire Corps plus some (700k troops) into theater. We didn't lift a finger to do anything like that this time. Just moved some ships & aircraft around and staged some fuel & weapons to keep planes in the air to interdict Iranian incoming.

So the "war" everyone screamed about literally could not have happened. But they wanted to have one to ***** about so badly that they 100% conjured one up out of whole cloth.


That is not accurate. We could easily have ramped up, escalating were by week, for months. We could have said our goal was finding the enriched uranium and recovering it. Or that we needed nuclear specialists to actually investigate the sites we bombed, to know how damaged they were.

There was no way we were invading without troop movement, but anyone 25 years old remembers how easy it is for the federal government to convince themselves invasion is good.
I did not speculate about what we could have done. I merely noted that we did not do ANYthing necessary to go to war. We did not preposition ANY soldiers, armored vehicles, supplies, support infrastructure. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. An invasion did not happen because one could not have happened. Nothing to invade with. Most of the talking heads screaming about us going to war full well knew that. They were just pandering to their base, and flexing their muscles to protect their positions.

You can't "sneak" 750k troops and all their weapons, armor, and supply chain to the far side of the world without someone spotting it. It took 5 months for us to do for 1GW, even with all the requisitions of civilian air/sea lift. Woulda taken years to try to do it the way you suggest (and still get spotted...you can't hide an armored division, much less a half dozen of them).

All we did was conduct flight & refueling operations to help protect Israeli airspace (and by extension Jordanian & Saudi & potentially Egyptian airspace). So did most of the militaries in the region, btw. Several Nato countries, too.... What we did was conduct a robust air defense mission, with allies and for allies, with a single air raid against a strategic target of immense national security significance. Israel did all the grunt work, taking out Iranian aircraft, air defense systems, command & control, etc..... They paved the street for us. (again, proving their worth as an asset).
I largely agree, but disagree with your previous statement that ground invasion "could not have happened." It absolutely could have. We simply chose to stop after targeting their nuclear facilities, and accepted that they still have their enriched uranium.
LOL well, of course we could have invaded Iran rather than bombed it..... IF we had taken 6 months or so of moving an entire corps of troops & logistics into theater. Last time we did that, Congress voted in advance to to it. Then we had a flurry of Executive Orders requisitioning civilian air/sea lift assets followed by warning orders for troops to mass at embarkation points. And on and on and on....weeks of steady build up (affording ever more leverage to diplomats), to include resolutions at the UN and announcements of formal alliance participants. But NONE that never happened this go-around. Not so much as a synapse in that direction.

The prospect of war so many screamed about by definition could not have happened. It was a terrible waste of political capital by the isolationist right.

Just not a reasonable take. It's reasonable to be wary of another war in the Middle East. Saying "it could not happen" just doesn't quite ring true.
it's a FACTUAL take. An invasion of Iran cannot happen if troops and ammunition and weapons systems and logistical chains are not deployed to the Iranian border, which would require Congressional approval. So until we see that happening - a vote by Congress to fund massing of armies at the embarkation line - it is not just reasonable but obligatory to ridicule all the nutjobs running around with their hair on fire about Gulf War 3.

If Trump is so bad, why do you have to work so hard to contrive things to criticize him about? Dude just solved the problem of Iranian nukes with a single bombing mission.
Total equipment exposed over Iran: 7 B2 bombers, 14 MOPs, 24 Tomahawks.
Total personnel exposed over Iran: 14 pilots.
All the heavy lifting to degrade Iranian A2AD and C&C structures was done by proxies.

That's it. A masterful job by the mightiest nation in the world to forestall the prospect of having to deal with a nuclear armed jihadist regime. Minimal risk, maximal outcome. And yet, you squeal in outrage

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Try less hard and you will get further.
I know facts and reality are painful for you, but they exist nonetheless. We cannot invade Iraq without a deployment of an expeditionary force which will take 6 months to deploy preceded by a vote in Congress to fund it. No bill has even been filed to do so. No troops or materiel has even been propositioned to do so. Ergo the deployment cannot happen. Ego the invasion cannot happen. And it is not necessary for it to happen, as the problem has been solved, at least in the intermediate term, by 24 ship-launched cruise missiles and a single bombing run involving 14 bombs launched from 7 aircraft. Total military personnel at risk over Iran = 14 pilots. We solved an existential strategic problem with the proverbial flick of a finger. Yet, you insist that we are about to go on another decades long war & nation-building exercise. (even though there is no evidence whatsoever that such is in the works and much to the contrary.)

Why do you have such a hard time with such simple realities?
It probably seems to a butcher of logic and reason that anyone not participating in such butcher, is not participating in reality. Such is the life of a zealot. I bet there are many people you don't understand.
Oldbear83
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The_barBEARian said:

Oldbear83 said:

Good point, I had not considered you could be all three ...


So that's you in the sweater.


Oldbear83
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FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Oldbear83 said:

Good point, I had not considered you could be all three ...


What is with the Boomer thing?
Let barBEARian celebrate his culture.

I mean, it's kind of impressive he still has a running AMC Pacer and several cases of Tab soda in his kitchen.
Sam Lowry
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FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Democracy in Iran looked more like this.

What your photos show is what we considered the lesser of two evils.
Sam, he was appointed. Not elected. When dismissed, he performed a coup and forced the Shah out of the Nation. You also leave out the little part that the Shah was in power since WW2 and was there before Mosddegh. You make it sound like the CIA just picked someone.

You are using Mosaddegh as an example of Democracy?? He nationalized industry and oil, as well as pardoning the guy who assassinated Razmarra! The Prime Minister before him.

So, yes. Just like the ones that I showed. Cute with the picture of his family walking, he was just as cruel, corrupt and communist as any of them. Stalin would have been proud.


He was appointed by the shah and elected by the majlis, a legislative body chosen by popular vote. He nationalized the oil industry based on overwhelming support from the public, who believed Iran's oil should be controlled by Iran and not the West. This is why the West tends to frown on Iranian democracy.

Mossadegh was no communist. He never performed a coup or forced the shah out of the country. It was Mossadegh who was removed in a coup, imprisoned for three years, and put under house arrest until his death. To compare him with the cruel dictatorship that replaced him in Iran, let alone with Stalin, is beyond misguided.

FTR the photos I linked were not of Mossadegh. They are just an ordinary Iranian family of the time.




I worked for an Iranian owned firm, was employee #4. Know engineers they got out of Iran. My bosses family has to do leave in 78. Also worked for a SGT that was in Tehran in 78 and had to leave. Your description is not consistent with people that were there. They view the Shah as the rightful ruler and Mossagedah as a usurper that betrayed.
Mossadegh died in 1967, so he had nothing to do with any of that. It sounds like you have him confused with Khomeini. We sided with Khomeini over the democratic reformer Shapour Bakhtiar and were indeed betrayed as a result. But again, Islamism is always the lesser of two evils compared with democracy.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear
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FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Oldbear83 said:

Good point, I had not considered you could be all three ...


What is with the Boomer thing?
It's what the yutes call people who they're losing an argument to.
FLBear5630
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Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Democracy in Iran looked more like this.

What your photos show is what we considered the lesser of two evils.
Sam, he was appointed. Not elected. When dismissed, he performed a coup and forced the Shah out of the Nation. You also leave out the little part that the Shah was in power since WW2 and was there before Mosddegh. You make it sound like the CIA just picked someone.

You are using Mosaddegh as an example of Democracy?? He nationalized industry and oil, as well as pardoning the guy who assassinated Razmarra! The Prime Minister before him.

So, yes. Just like the ones that I showed. Cute with the picture of his family walking, he was just as cruel, corrupt and communist as any of them. Stalin would have been proud.


He was appointed by the shah and elected by the majlis, a legislative body chosen by popular vote. He nationalized the oil industry based on overwhelming support from the public, who believed Iran's oil should be controlled by Iran and not the West. This is why the West tends to frown on Iranian democracy.

Mossadegh was no communist. He never performed a coup or forced the shah out of the country. It was Mossadegh who was removed in a coup, imprisoned for three years, and put under house arrest until his death. To compare him with the cruel dictatorship that replaced him in Iran, let alone with Stalin, is beyond misguided.

FTR the photos I linked were not of Mossadegh. They are just an ordinary Iranian family of the time.




I worked for an Iranian owned firm, was employee #4. Know engineers they got out of Iran. My bosses family has to do leave in 78. Also worked for a SGT that was in Tehran in 78 and had to leave. Your description is not consistent with people that were there. They view the Shah as the rightful ruler and Mossagedah as a usurper that betrayed.
Mossadegh died in 1967, so he had nothing to do with any of that. It sounds like you have him confused with Khomeini. We sided with Khomeini over the democratic reformer Shapour Bakhtiar and were indeed betrayed as a result. But again, Islamism is always the lesser of two evils compared with democracy.


No, the people I know were forced to leave in 78, that was Khomeini.
EatMoreSalmon
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Massadegh's party supported Khomeini's take over.
FLBear5630
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Massadegh's party supported Khomeini's take over.



They supported anything against the Shah, whom we supported in the US. The engineers I knew did not speak kindly about Massadegh. But they were for the Shah. Said he was authoritative but Iran prospered and people had good life's. Women even went to engineering school under Shah
boognish_bear
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The_barBEARian
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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Oldbear83 said:

Good point, I had not considered you could be all three ...


What is with the Boomer thing?
It's what the yutes call people who they're losing an argument to.

I won the argument bcs I was the magnanimous one and extended an olive branch to the guy despite his ridiculous lies(I never wished death on him).

I chose class and grace over his childish hate and abuse.

It's only a reflection of his character if he is unable to reciprocate.

I enjoy these moments where I can demonstrate virtues like tolerance and restraint to the feral cretins on this board.

As an Anglo American, it is my burden to lead by example. If I lose control, how can I expect any of you to remain civil?


Assassin
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boognish_bear said:


He certainly deserves it
Facebook Groups at; Memories of Dallas, Mem of Texas, Mem of Football in Texas, Mem Texas Music and Through a Texas Lens. Come visit! Over 100,000 members and 100,000 regular visitors
Mothra
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The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:

The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:



Correcting your erroneous positions is like shooting fish in a barrel. Let me help you, princess.

Boomers are 60-78 years old. If you are age 45-60, you are GenX - the demographic that now controls the country, and largely support Israel's fight against Islamic fundamentalists, according to polls.

Snowflakes/millennials are 29-44.

You are a really stupid person.

Oh nvm... my bad.

I didnt realize this was your way of showing affection.
You do realize you called me evil and wished death on me like 3-4 weeks ago, right? You've said it multiple times, only to say it again today.

Or is this your ADD acting up again? Mommy forget your dose of Ritalin?

When you start personally attacking me and my family, as you did 3-4 weeks ago, I respond in kind.

But its all good man.

You are a saint and I am a sinner.

I wish you nothing but good health, prosperity, and success in all your future endeavors!

I dont give a **** what anyone on this board thinks of me, but I also dont enjoy insulting other posters here. It's unpleasant and undignified.

So I apologize for calling you evil and questioning your vitality.

Your revisionist history and justification for your behavior is laughable. Nobody attacked your family.

You continue to exhibit unhinged and mentally unstable behavior.
Mothra
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Realitybites said:



If the Iranian leadership is full of suicidal 12er Shias who can't wait to trigger the apocalypse, why was their response to our bombing of their facilities de-escalatory? Why didn't they race towards weaponizing uranium and stop at 60%? Why have the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks on US citizens been carried out by Sunnis?

This long form 3 hour interview will tell you a great many things you won't hear on Fox News.
We talking about the same Iran whose proxies have killed more American servicemen in the last 40 years than any other country in the world?

I have no idea whether the Iranian leadership is suicidal, but given their penchant for killing Americans, I don't want to find out.
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

historian said:

UNRWA was allied to Hamas. Some of them participated in the October 7 attacks. Some guarded hostages for months. They were terrorists and legitimate targets.

The Israelis had good reason to limit international journalists access to the war zone. They are often openly supportive of Hamas and routinely parrot their lies uncritically. The fascist media are propagandists just like they are here on domestic issues.
UNRWA has, or had, some 13,000 workers in Gaza. Declaring open season on the organization because a handful of them were allied with Hamas (and were fired after an investigation) is the definition of extremism.
LOL. Declaring open season. Please. Exaggerate much?
Mothra
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The_barBEARian said:

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Oldbear83 said:

Good point, I had not considered you could be all three ...


What is with the Boomer thing?
It's what the yutes call people who they're losing an argument to.

I won the argument bcs I was the magnanimous one and extended an olive branch to the guy despite his ridiculous lies(I never wished death on him).

I chose class and grace over his childish hate and abuse.

It's only a reflection of his character if he is unable to reciprocate.

I enjoy these moments where I can demonstrate virtues like tolerance and restraint to the feral cretins on this board.

As an Anglo American, it is my burden to lead by example. If I lose control, how can I expect any of you to remain civil?
LOL. One of the more unintentionally hilarious posts I've read on this board in a while. I am going to have to bookmark this one.

Princess is a legend in his own mind - faced off against the evil Mothra and vanquished her with his magnanimity.
Oldbear83
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Weak fiction, mister.

Hope you aren't planning on a writing career. Facts and you just don't get alone, hoss.
ATL Bear
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Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ShooterTX said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Assassin said:

The_barBEARian said:

whiterock said:

The_barBEARian said:




Then why isnt he focused on issues concerning the citizens of New Jersey?
He is. LOTS of NJ citizens understand that supporting Israel is in our national interest.



Only two groups support Israel in America.

1) Religious Zealot Boomercons over 50

2) Jews

I highly doubt his district is majority old Boomers over 50 and Jews.

Several organizations and groups in the US actively support Israel, with varying focuses and levels of influence. These include prominent lobbying groups like AIPAC, religious organizations such as Christians United for Israel, and various Jewish organizations.
Here's a breakdown of some key pro-Israel groups:
Lobbying and Advocacy Groups:
American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC):
.
AIPAC is a major lobbying group that works to strengthen the US-Israel relationship and influence US policy in favor of Israel. It has a large grassroots network and a PAC that provides direct financial support to candidates who align with its agenda.
J Street:
.
While also pro-Israel, J Street advocates for a two-state solution and a more nuanced approach to US-Israel relations, often differing from AIPAC's stance.
Israel Allies Caucus:
.
This is a bipartisan group in the US House of Representatives that works to support Israel's security and fight against antisemitism and the BDS movement.
Jewish Organizations:
Various Jewish Federations and Community Relations Councils:
.
These groups work to advocate for Israel within their communities and engage in grassroots advocacy efforts.
Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations:
.
This organization brings together a wide range of Jewish groups to forge a unified front in support of Israel.
Zionist Organization of America, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress:
.
These are older, more established Zionist organizations that have historically played a role in advocating for Israel and Jewish causes.
Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism:
.
This organization represents the Reform Jewish movement and engages in advocacy for Israel and other social justice issues.
Jewish National Fund-USA:
.
This organization focuses on supporting the land and people of Israel through various projects and initiatives.
Religious Groups:
Christians United for Israel (CUFI):
.
This is a large evangelical Christian organization that strongly supports Israel based on religious beliefs about the importance of the Jewish state.
Other Evangelical Groups:
.
Many evangelical Christians believe that the continued existence of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy and are strong supporters.
Other Groups:
Washington Institute for Near East Policy:
.
This think tank conducts research and analysis on the Middle East, often with a focus on US-Israel relations.
Various civil rights groups:
.
While some civil rights groups advocate for Palestinian rights and criticize Israeli policies, others may support Israel's security and right to exist



I've posted numerous polls that show that when you look at Millennials only about 25% support Israel.

Right at about 50/50 among Millennial Republicans.... and less than 20% of Millennial Democrats.

Israel favorability only gets worse with Gen Z.
Well, if Gen X and Millennials don't support, we should just walk away from our positions in the Middle East. Probably Asia, Europe and South America too...

But, who do those Generations support, besides themselves? Curious, what do those Generations support besides a shorter work weeks, less working hours, Government paying for them and "mental health days"? You are really good at what you don't like, what do you support that isn't self-driven?





Millenials and Gen Z are also the largest supporters of Hamas. They have been successfully brainwashed by the left into thinking that Muslims are the good guys. Very sad.
They are the generations that chant "from the river to the sea", and wave terrorist (Palestinian) flags on American holidays. They also have the largest percentages who believe in climate change BS, LGBT nonsense, and America is an evil, racist nation.

We have a lot of work to do with those kids. We need to undo ALL the lies, not just the pro-hamas/anti-jew lies.
Pretty sure bar-bearian isn't going to be helpful in spreading the truth... he is a zealot when it comes to the leftist lies about Jews.


Epstein wasnt working for Mossad?

I have always been the most conservative member of this board when it comes to immigration.

I want net negative immigration, a freeze on H1-Bs, ending birthright citizenship, and revoking citizenship of naturalized citizens and their anchor babies who refuse to integrate into American society.

I am the only one with the temerity to say we should adopt the IDF approach and use lethal force at our borders against those who resist or attack our border agents.

Support for Israel isnt a left vs right issue.

It those with common sense vs those who have been indoctrinated into a Ted Cruz religious heresy... that Satanyahu is some divine chosen one or that "blessing Israel" will do anything other than make America poorer and less free.
When did supporting Israel to defend themselves and to allow the US a presence in the Middle East turn to an immigration talk???

Congress should spend a lot more time on immigration and next to zero time supporting Israel yet we see the inverse.

The only thing Congress did the last two years of Biden Presidency was send money to Israel and Ukraine.

They did nothing to secure our borders or fix the broken immigration system.


The two are not connected. Congress should spent more time on immigration reform. Israel is one of our best allies and we should be supporting them. We should be doing both.

Well this is the problem Boomers are facing... the keep telling younger Americans this but cant seem to come up with a good argument for why this is true.
You are very similar to the guy in the Catholic religion discussion. Asks questions, we provide him the information and links and he disregards them. This is the 2nd time I have linked why Israel is one of the US's top allies. I can go with a VARIETY of articles, but I chose one from Belgium. I figured you would believe a Euro-article before a US Veteran that is older than you or any of the numerous people on this thread with actual experience with Israel...

So, try this one. It is pretty much the same stuff..

Why does the US support Israel? Key reasons explained



That article doesnt address the primary problem that Israel doesnt actually pay for anything. All of this is American dollars being used to fund R&D and hardware and it is all paid for by the American tax payer.

Does the benefit of jobs gained in the defense industry offset all the jobs lost in other areas of our economy due to increased debt and inflation?
That is a bit of an exaggeration, the US does provide Israel with aid. No doubt. I would say it is a symbiotic relationship, as the US provides money, protection and diplomatic clout. Israel provides an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, a pipeline of innovation and a democracy in the Middle East (was important to past generations, not so much with younger I guess).
Democracy in the Middle East was important to past generations only in the sense that they were terrified of it and did everything they could to stop it. Iran tried to establish democracy twice in the 20th century, once under the Qajar dynasty and again under the Pahlavi dynasty, but the West always prevented it. The mullahs, who weren't especially fond of the idea either, lent their assistance and grew more powerful and more radical as a result. There was another period of semi-democratic reform in the late 90s and early 2000s, but it mostly fizzled out after Bush's "axis of evil" speech.
Wrong. The Middle East since Sykes-Picot has been an autocratic mosh pit of either Arab Nationalism or Islamism, neither of which fit well with democracy or freedom. It is plagued by this still today, and retains an inherent ideological conflict with the West.
This only makes sense if you understand "democracy" to mean Western hegemony (which of course is exactly how the West understands it).
Western hegemony and colonialism kept the region looking like the "normal Iranian family" you posted above with a semi normal transitional government until Arab Nationalism and Islamism turned them into sectarian and authoritarian Muslim fiefdoms. As the West settled economic disputes and backed out of social interest, every single one went radically autocratic. They are more radical today than they ever were under colonial or greater Western hegemonic influence. That's not a cry for return to greater hegemony, only the reality of the ideological rift that people like Sayyid Qutb, Hassan al-Banna, and the Qom clan of Ayatollahs brought to bear on the region. Israel's sound defeating of the main secular Arab nationalist countries gave even more strength to the Islamist movement. Meanwhile Baathist type leadership hung on through hyper-autocratic strongmen.
Realitybites
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Mothra said:

We talking about the same Iran whose proxies have killed more American servicemen in the last 40 years than any other country in the world?


If you watch the video from start to finish, you'll learn a great deal. One of the things that you'll learn is that this is not a correct statement.

For example, you probably buy Louis Freeh's official FBI line that Iran was responsible for the Khobar Towers attack. In reality, Bin Laden's Al-Aqeda organization was behind it.

"Assessing al-Qa`ida's Role

The principal reason to suspect al-Qa`ida's involvement is the fact that Usama bin Ladin had a motive to attack. Since late 1990, Bin Ladin had expressed deep dissatisfaction with the U.S. military presence in his native Saudi Arabia, a presence he considered a violation of the sanctity of the "Land of the Two Holy Places." In August 1996, he declared war on U.S. troops in the Arabian Peninsula. Although this declaration postdates the Khobar bombing, Bin Ladin had declared his readiness to attack U.S. troops several years earlier in informal settings 7. Moreover, Bin Ladin applauded the Khobar operation in a number of statements and interviews after the attack 8.

Many would also argue that Bin Ladin also had the operational capability. Al-Qa`ida-linked militants undertook several military operations overseas in the early 1990s, from an alleged assassination attempt on the former king of Afghanistan in Rome in November 1991, to the hotel bombings in the Yemeni port of Aden in December 1992, to guerrilla warfare in Somalia in 1993. There is also evidence that Bin Ladin sought to operate in Saudi Arabia from approximately 1994 onward. In mid-1994, Saudi authorities allegedly intercepted a shipment of explosives sent by al-Qa`ida from Sudan to Saudi Arabia 9. According to a declassified Iraqi document, Bin Ladin met with an Iraqi government representative in Khartoum in early 1995 and discussed "carrying out joint operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia 10. The Yemeni jihadist Nasir al-Bahri has also said that Bin Ladin "opened branches of the al-Qa`ida organization in Saudi Arabia" in 1996 11.

The third reason to suspect al-Qa`ida involvement is that prior to the Khobar bombing Saudi Arabia experienced two violent attacks by Saudi Arab Afghans 12. The first was the so-called al-Hudhayf incident in November 1994, in which Abdallah al-Hudhayf threw acid in the face of a police officer to avenge the arrest of the leaders of the moderate Islamist opposition two months earlier 13. The second attack was the November 1995 car bombing of the U.S. training mission to the Saudi National Guard in central Riyadh, in which five Americans and two Indians were killed 14. In their televised April 1995 confessions, the four alleged perpetrators, three of whom were Arab Afghans, said they were influenced by Usama bin Ladin, Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi and Saad al-Faqih 15. Although the Riyadh attack was initiated "from below" and not orchestrated by Bin Ladin himself, it showed that Sunni militants were able and willing to use car bombings against U.S. targets in Saudi Arabia 16.

Finally, a specific piece of intelligence would seem to link Bin Ladin to Khobar. A retired CIA official has said that two days after the bombing, the National Security Agency intercepted phone calls from al-Qa`ida second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri and Ashra Hadi (head of Palestinian Islamic Jihad) allegedly congratulating Bin Ladin on the Khobar attack."

The reality is that Sunni muslims from a variety of nations have been responsible for the overwhelming majority of attacks against US citizens over the past half century.

To borrow from Reagan, the problem isn't that you don't know things. The problem is that so much of what you know just isn't so.
Mothra
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Realitybites said:

Mothra said:

We talking about the same Iran whose proxies have killed more American servicemen in the last 40 years than any other country in the world?


If you watch the video from start to finish, you'll learn a great deal. One of the things that you'll learn is that this is not a correct statement.

For example, you probably buy Louis Freeh's official FBI line that Iran was responsible for the Khobar Towers attack. In reality, Bin Laden's Al-Aqeda organization was behind it.

"Assessing al-Qa`ida's Role

The principal reason to suspect al-Qa`ida's involvement is the fact that Usama bin Ladin had a motive to attack. Since late 1990, Bin Ladin had expressed deep dissatisfaction with the U.S. military presence in his native Saudi Arabia, a presence he considered a violation of the sanctity of the "Land of the Two Holy Places." In August 1996, he declared war on U.S. troops in the Arabian Peninsula. Although this declaration postdates the Khobar bombing, Bin Ladin had declared his readiness to attack U.S. troops several years earlier in informal settings 7. Moreover, Bin Ladin applauded the Khobar operation in a number of statements and interviews after the attack 8.

Many would also argue that Bin Ladin also had the operational capability. Al-Qa`ida-linked militants undertook several military operations overseas in the early 1990s, from an alleged assassination attempt on the former king of Afghanistan in Rome in November 1991, to the hotel bombings in the Yemeni port of Aden in December 1992, to guerrilla warfare in Somalia in 1993. There is also evidence that Bin Ladin sought to operate in Saudi Arabia from approximately 1994 onward. In mid-1994, Saudi authorities allegedly intercepted a shipment of explosives sent by al-Qa`ida from Sudan to Saudi Arabia 9. According to a declassified Iraqi document, Bin Ladin met with an Iraqi government representative in Khartoum in early 1995 and discussed "carrying out joint operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia 10. The Yemeni jihadist Nasir al-Bahri has also said that Bin Ladin "opened branches of the al-Qa`ida organization in Saudi Arabia" in 1996 11.

The third reason to suspect al-Qa`ida involvement is that prior to the Khobar bombing Saudi Arabia experienced two violent attacks by Saudi Arab Afghans 12. The first was the so-called al-Hudhayf incident in November 1994, in which Abdallah al-Hudhayf threw acid in the face of a police officer to avenge the arrest of the leaders of the moderate Islamist opposition two months earlier 13. The second attack was the November 1995 car bombing of the U.S. training mission to the Saudi National Guard in central Riyadh, in which five Americans and two Indians were killed 14. In their televised April 1995 confessions, the four alleged perpetrators, three of whom were Arab Afghans, said they were influenced by Usama bin Ladin, Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi and Saad al-Faqih 15. Although the Riyadh attack was initiated "from below" and not orchestrated by Bin Ladin himself, it showed that Sunni militants were able and willing to use car bombings against U.S. targets in Saudi Arabia 16.

Finally, a specific piece of intelligence would seem to link Bin Ladin to Khobar. A retired CIA official has said that two days after the bombing, the National Security Agency intercepted phone calls from al-Qa`ida second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri and Ashra Hadi (head of Palestinian Islamic Jihad) allegedly congratulating Bin Ladin on the Khobar attack."

The reality is that Sunni muslims from a variety of nations have been responsible for the overwhelming majority of attacks against US citizens over the past half century.

To borrow from Reagan, the problem isn't that you don't know things. The problem is that so much of what you know just isn't so.
Before I spend the time, tell me, does he dispute that Iran isn't the number one funder and supplier of weapons of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis in Yemen? Does he dispute that Iran was not the number one funder and supplier of weapons to the militant groups in Iraq during the Iraq war?

You bring up one example that quite frankly, there's always been much dispute about, and no real solid basis for accusing certain parties, when there are numerous militant groups who've received Iranian funding and weapons.

The move to defend Iran is an interesting tactic by the Woke Right. It tends to prove the old adage that my enemy's enemy is my friend.

Edit: Looked up this guy to find his credentials. He essentially has none. Looks like he hosts a radio show from here in Austin. He does has isolationist beliefs, which would explain his motivation for trying to absolve Iran for its well-documented funding of terrorist organizations in the ME.

But because he and Tucker share the same mindset, Tucker gives him a platform, of course. Think i'll pass listening to propaganda, but do answer my questions if you can.
Realitybites
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Quote:


The move to defend Iran is an interesting tactic by the Woke Right. It tends to prove the old adage that my enemy's enemy is my friend.


Iran's proxies in Hezbollah and Yemen are well known. Nobody is "defending Iran". There is no "woke right". We're merely trying to come to an objective determination about how big a threat Iran is to the *United States*, and whether there is a cause for war. Thus far, an objective analysis of the evidence shows that it isn't.

As far as your refusal to watch the video and evaluate all the evidence, that is unsurprising.
Sam Lowry
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So the savages can't govern themselves, and that's why we have to take all their oil and give them little or nothing in return? The truth is that they went radically autocratic because we ensured that democracy wasn't an option. We'll take a corrupt but friendly strongman or an Islamist over a liberal any day.
Mothra
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Realitybites said:

Quote:


The move to defend Iran is an interesting tactic by the Woke Right. It tends to prove the old adage that my enemy's enemy is my friend.


Iran's proxies in Hezbollah and Yemen are well known. Nobody is "defending Iran". There is no "woke right". We're merely trying to come to an objective determination about how big a threat Iran is to the *United States*, and whether there is a cause for war. Thus far, an objective analysis of the evidence shows that it isn't.

As far as your refusal to watch the video and evaluate all the evidence, that is unsurprising.
I understand why a member of the Woke Right would like to deny it exists.

You alleged above that I was wrong to state that Iran proxies were responsible for more US servicemembers deaths than any other country. How does Horton's 3-hour interview disprove that? Do you have a specific section I can watch where he shares evidence to support that position? Does he dispute that Iran was the number one sponsor of militant groups in Iraq? If not, then it sounds like your position simply has no factual support.

While I listen to lots of sources, I try not to listen to 3 hours worth of propaganda. It's no surprise that you swallow down whatever confirms your bias like gin at a sorority party.
Mitch Blood Green
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The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:

The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:



Correcting your erroneous positions is like shooting fish in a barrel. Let me help you, princess.

Boomers are 60-78 years old. If you are age 45-60, you are GenX - the demographic that now controls the country, and largely support Israel's fight against Islamic fundamentalists, according to polls.

Snowflakes/millennials are 29-44.

You are a really stupid person.

Oh nvm... my bad.

I didnt realize this was your way of showing affection.
You do realize you called me evil and wished death on me like 3-4 weeks ago, right? You've said it multiple times, only to say it again today.

Or is this your ADD acting up again? Mommy forget your dose of Ritalin?

When you start personally attacking me and my family, as you did 3-4 weeks ago, I respond in kind.

But its all good man.

You are a saint and I am a sinner.

I wish you nothing but good health, prosperity, and success in all your future endeavors!

I dont give a **** what anyone on this board thinks of me, but I also dont enjoy insulting other posters here. It's unpleasant and undignified.

So I apologize for calling you evil and questioning your vitality.



Can't we all get a loan? (Preferably under 9% APR)
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

So the savages can't govern themselves, and that's why we have to take all their oil and give them little or nothing in return? The truth is that they went radically autocratic because we ensured that democracy wasn't an option. We'll take a corrupt but friendly strongman or an Islamist over a liberal any day.
lol
 
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