yet.. who are they gonna test it on? The 53 homeland and FBI plants?Sam Lowry said:That's also debatable. What's not debatable is that the insurrection issue has not (yet) been decided in court.4th and Inches said:its a very educated opinion and not mine, dont shoot the messanger. It's not my fault that the case for insurrection didnt rise to the level of prosecutionSam Lowry said:That's an opinion, not a fact proven in court.4th and Inches said:no difference.. both cases fail to meet the merits.Sam Lowry said:The difference is that the stolen election claim was tested in court and failed.4th and Inches said:interesting. It's probably not a direct quote but at least go with a paraphrase of:Sam Lowry said:Not to split hairs over whether you split hairs, but you totally did split hairs.4th and Inches said:I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move onTexasScientist said:Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.4th and Inches said:So not a single oneTexasScientist said:insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.4th and Inches said:Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.TexasScientist said:Sam Lowry said:4th and Inches said:"election fraud" not proven in courtSam Lowry said:It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.whiterock said:The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.Sam Lowry said:whiterock said:I saw a bike rack being moved.sombear said:Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.whiterock said:Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.sombear said:100% false.whiterock said:Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.Mothra said:Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.Quote:Yes.Quote:Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?Quote:You post fiction.Quote:
Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.
Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"
Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.
Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.
He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.
Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?
Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.
The difference is quite stark.
The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm
And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.
Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.
And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.
You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.
In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.
I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.
We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.
I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)
Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.
Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.
Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.
"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.Quote:
"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..
When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia
Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows
Here are some. How many do you need?
Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us
Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach
One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.
Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen
The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]
18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!
18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"
This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.
Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.
As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.
you can say whatever you want outside of court but in court you got a prove what happened. This when you got a prove what law they broke. That's what they did in court and that's what they were convicted of. It's not splitting hairs, I can call it the greatest revolution of our lifetime outside of court or I can call it a stolen election outside of court. In court- you got a prove something.
In court, it was proven to be a freaking riot. It was a disruption of a govt proceeding. It was tresspassing. It was destruction of property. It was not an insurrection.
“Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans. It is lovely to be silly at the right moment.”
–Horace
“Insomnia sharpens your math skills because you spend all night calculating how much sleep you’ll get if you’re able to ‘fall asleep right now.’ “
–Horace
“Insomnia sharpens your math skills because you spend all night calculating how much sleep you’ll get if you’re able to ‘fall asleep right now.’ “
