sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

Mothra said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

whitewash used to be a good poster, but unfortunately, I think his allegiance to either Trump or perhaps more appropriately whichever candidate he thinks will be the nominee or has the best chance to win has completely skewed his perspective. He is incapable of being objective regarding Trump.

---

Objectivity? the irony of neverTrumpism never ceases to amaze.

4th and Inches said:

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Yes we can. That's what we've been explaining to you.

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Haven't you been telling us that Jan 6 was only Buffalo man taking a police escorted tour along with some rowdy tourists

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Haven't you been telling us that Buffalo tard taking a police escorted tour of the capitol was an "iNsUrReCtIoN"?

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No.

There was an insurrection on Jan 6. An "insurrection," by definition, is a "violent uprising against an authority or government." It is clear that Capitol stormers who dissented against the election outcome, or even sought to obstruct Congress' certification of the election, were rising up against the government.

---

no, there wasnt.. I showed you the specific laws and what actually happened is what they were charged with in court.

"They oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States"

Not an insurrection.

---

Exactly. The plain, stated intent of the demonstration was to change the impending course of action (validation of the submitted electoral vote) into an alternative course of action (sending questioned electoral votes of key states back to the respective state legislatures for remedy). That was the argument made in courts. It was the argument made in the media. It was the argument made in speeches to supporters. It was the argument made by supportive elected officials in Congress.

Arguing FOR an alternative course of action interpretable in law is done every single day all over this country. Often those arguments are wrong, even nonsensical. But the making of them is NOT illegal. Certainly not insurrection. Neither is a demonstration in support of such. Nor a riot.

neverTrumper outrage is a glorious thing to watch. Vanity on display. Article explains it nicely:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/202103/why-does-outrage-often-feel-so-good

whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

---

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

whitewash used to be a good poster, but unfortunately, I think his allegiance to either Trump or perhaps more appropriately whichever candidate he thinks will be the nominee or has the best chance to win has completely skewed his perspective. He is incapable of being objective regarding Trump.

---

Objectivity? the irony of neverTrumpism never ceases to amaze.

---

I voted for trump in the last two elections, and have indicated I will do so again if he's the nominee. But sure you go with that.

Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Quote:

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Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

whitewash used to be a good poster, but unfortunately, I think his allegiance to either Trump or perhaps more appropriately whichever candidate he thinks will be the nominee or has the best chance to win has completely skewed his perspective. He is incapable of being objective regarding Trump.

---

Objectivity? the irony of neverTrumpism never ceases to amaze.

---

I voted for trump in the last two elections, and have indicated I will do so again if he's the nominee. But sure you go with that.

---

Fair point. Also fair to note that you are nearly OSO-esque in elevating to MAGA-head status anyone who doesn't share your enthusiasm for criticizing Trump.

I see what you see about him. Doesn't bother me nearly as much. AIso stipulate to the popularity numbers you cite. They are a problem. But a common thread of all the electability arguments is a latent Gambler's Fallacy - Biden is also wildly unpopular (within or very close to margin of error in most polls), and the numbers of both men can and likely will change in a year. Moreover, it's not that circumstances could break in Trump's favor, but rather that they are likely to do so. The only question is a matter of degree.

And we do have a very talented challenger likely to join the race. The fight between them is a dynamic that could move needles, as well.

Watch, wait, observe.....

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

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Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

---

Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

---

Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

---

Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

---

Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

---

Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

if so, you need to get a lot better to be effective.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

---

Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

if so, you need to get a lot better to be effective.

---

I defer to the master. When you can look at the J6 riot and say it was "some bike racks being moved," it doesn't get much better than that.

---

not very good spin. You can do better....

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Trump Recklessly Warning of 'Death and Destruction' If He's Indicted

By Philip Klein
March 24, 2023

Having already called for protests, Donald Trump is now deliberately raising the threat of "death and destruction" in the event that he is indicted.

In a Truth Social rant posted after 1 a.m., Trump wrote:

What kind of person can charge another person, in this case a former president of the United States, who got more votes than any sitting president in history, and leading candidate (by far!) for the Republican nomination, with a Crime, when it is known by all that no crime has been committed, & also known that potential death & destruction in such a false charge could be catastrophic for our Country? Why & who would do such a thing? Only a degenerate psychopath that truly hates the USA!

Following Trump's initial call for protests, many of his defenders insisted that he obviously meant peaceful protests. Now they'll pivot to the argument that he wasn't saying "death and destruction" would be a good thing, just making this observation about the state of play.

But it's pretty obvious what he's doing here. It's a game he's played before. He's trying to use his ability to whip up supporters into a frenzy as an intimidation tactic to further his own aims while absolving himself from responsibility for anything that happens. He did that in the wake of his 2020 election defeat, and we ended up with the Capitol riot. Instead of taking January 6 as a lesson against using rhetoric so loosely, Trump is instead using people's memories of the event to make his warnings of "death and destruction" more credible.

Once again Trump is acting as a dangerous, destructive force.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/trump-recklessly-warning-of-death-and-destruction-if-hes-indicted/

---

There is a stronger case that neverTrumpers are the dangerous destructive force here, by turning a blind eye to the real culprit posing a far larger threat to constitutional order.

Trump is correct in calling out the prosecutorial misconduct. And that misconduct is quite egregious. Who would not be angry to be targeted for such blatant political reasons? And his statements are hardly calling for death and destruction. He is merely noting that the egregious abuse of office could cause protests, and protests occasionally turn into riots, at which time propel and property are often harmed. After the way his supporters were treated at J6, and the naked Reichstag Fire hoax his political opponents conducted against him after J6, it would be irresponsible of him NOT to speak out.

Trump is not causing this crisis.
Bragg is.

Let's watch the polling over the coming days. I suspect his support in the primary will rise, and his support in the general will be no worse than unchanged. If that happens, it means he is correctly reading public opinion.

It is all well & good to criticize Trump's rhetoric here, as long as one is equally critical of the proximate cause of the crisis = Bragg.

---

Here is the meat of your argument: if a politician is sufficiently important they cannot be prosecuted.

You are wrong. No one is above the law.

Besides, he's being tried as an adult

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Trump Recklessly Warning of 'Death and Destruction' If He's Indicted

By Philip Klein
March 24, 2023

Having already called for protests, Donald Trump is now deliberately raising the threat of "death and destruction" in the event that he is indicted.

In a Truth Social rant posted after 1 a.m., Trump wrote:

What kind of person can charge another person, in this case a former president of the United States, who got more votes than any sitting president in history, and leading candidate (by far!) for the Republican nomination, with a Crime, when it is known by all that no crime has been committed, & also known that potential death & destruction in such a false charge could be catastrophic for our Country? Why & who would do such a thing? Only a degenerate psychopath that truly hates the USA!

Following Trump's initial call for protests, many of his defenders insisted that he obviously meant peaceful protests. Now they'll pivot to the argument that he wasn't saying "death and destruction" would be a good thing, just making this observation about the state of play.

But it's pretty obvious what he's doing here. It's a game he's played before. He's trying to use his ability to whip up supporters into a frenzy as an intimidation tactic to further his own aims while absolving himself from responsibility for anything that happens. He did that in the wake of his 2020 election defeat, and we ended up with the Capitol riot. Instead of taking January 6 as a lesson against using rhetoric so loosely, Trump is instead using people's memories of the event to make his warnings of "death and destruction" more credible.

Once again Trump is acting as a dangerous, destructive force.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/trump-recklessly-warning-of-death-and-destruction-if-hes-indicted/

---

There is a stronger case that neverTrumpers are the dangerous destructive force here, by turning a blind eye to the real culprit posing a far larger threat to constitutional order.

Trump is correct in calling out the prosecutorial misconduct. And that misconduct is quite egregious. Who would not be angry to be targeted for such blatant political reasons? And his statements are hardly calling for death and destruction. He is merely noting that the egregious abuse of office could cause protests, and protests occasionally turn into riots, at which time propel and property are often harmed. After the way his supporters were treated at J6, and the naked Reichstag Fire hoax his political opponents conducted against him after J6, it would be irresponsible of him NOT to speak out.

Trump is not causing this crisis.
Bragg is.

Let's watch the polling over the coming days. I suspect his support in the primary will rise, and his support in the general will be no worse than unchanged. If that happens, it means he is correctly reading public opinion.

It is all well & good to criticize Trump's rhetoric here, as long as one is equally critical of the proximate cause of the crisis = Bragg.

---

Here is the meat of your argument: if a politician is sufficiently important they cannot be prosecuted.

You are wrong. No one is above the law.

Besides, he's being tried as an adult

---

Here is the meat of your argument: "I'll cover the paucity of legal arguments to defend what Bragg did, so I'll offer up a straw man that you are asserting Trump is above the law."

Fact is, he's being prosecuted because he is a political threat to the Democrat Party.
Lavrentiy Beria would approve.

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Trump Recklessly Warning of 'Death and Destruction' If He's Indicted

By Philip Klein
March 24, 2023

Having already called for protests, Donald Trump is now deliberately raising the threat of "death and destruction" in the event that he is indicted.

In a Truth Social rant posted after 1 a.m., Trump wrote:

What kind of person can charge another person, in this case a former president of the United States, who got more votes than any sitting president in history, and leading candidate (by far!) for the Republican nomination, with a Crime, when it is known by all that no crime has been committed, & also known that potential death & destruction in such a false charge could be catastrophic for our Country? Why & who would do such a thing? Only a degenerate psychopath that truly hates the USA!

Following Trump's initial call for protests, many of his defenders insisted that he obviously meant peaceful protests. Now they'll pivot to the argument that he wasn't saying "death and destruction" would be a good thing, just making this observation about the state of play.

But it's pretty obvious what he's doing here. It's a game he's played before. He's trying to use his ability to whip up supporters into a frenzy as an intimidation tactic to further his own aims while absolving himself from responsibility for anything that happens. He did that in the wake of his 2020 election defeat, and we ended up with the Capitol riot. Instead of taking January 6 as a lesson against using rhetoric so loosely, Trump is instead using people's memories of the event to make his warnings of "death and destruction" more credible.

Once again Trump is acting as a dangerous, destructive force.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/trump-recklessly-warning-of-death-and-destruction-if-hes-indicted/

---

There is a stronger case that neverTrumpers are the dangerous destructive force here, by turning a blind eye to the real culprit posing a far larger threat to constitutional order.

Trump is correct in calling out the prosecutorial misconduct. And that misconduct is quite egregious. Who would not be angry to be targeted for such blatant political reasons? And his statements are hardly calling for death and destruction. He is merely noting that the egregious abuse of office could cause protests, and protests occasionally turn into riots, at which time propel and property are often harmed. After the way his supporters were treated at J6, and the naked Reichstag Fire hoax his political opponents conducted against him after J6, it would be irresponsible of him NOT to speak out.

Trump is not causing this crisis.
Bragg is.

Let's watch the polling over the coming days. I suspect his support in the primary will rise, and his support in the general will be no worse than unchanged. If that happens, it means he is correctly reading public opinion.

It is all well & good to criticize Trump's rhetoric here, as long as one is equally critical of the proximate cause of the crisis = Bragg.

---

Here is the meat of your argument: if a politician is sufficiently important they cannot be prosecuted.

You are wrong. No one is above the law.

Besides, he's being tried as an adult

---

Here is the meat of your argument: "I'll cover the paucity of legal arguments to defend what Bragg did, so I'll offer up a straw man that you are asserting Trump is above the law."

Fact is, he's being prosecuted because he is a political threat to the Democrat Party.
Lavrentiy Beria would approve.

---

What "paucity of legal arguments" are you talking about? You haven't even seen the charges yet.

And, again, the logic of your argument is that politicians are exempt from prosecution. Well, your favorite one anyway.

But really, with no knowledge of the indictment, tell me what the legal flaws are. Can't wait.

We will see shortly if there is anything new

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

---

Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.

---

Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Yeah, sedition is an honor...

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Yeah, sedition is an honor...

---

it is what it is.. but what it isnt is insurrection.

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

---

I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move on

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

---

I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move on

---

Not to split hairs over whether you split hairs, but you totally did split hairs.

---

interesting. It's probably not a direct quote but at least go with a paraphrase of:

you can say whatever you want outside of court but in court you got a prove what happened. This when you got a prove what law they broke. That's what they did in court and that's what they were convicted of. It's not splitting hairs, I can call it the greatest revolution of our lifetime outside of court or I can call it a stolen election outside of court. In court- you got a prove something.

In court, it was proven to be a freaking riot. It was a disruption of a govt proceeding. It was tresspassing. It was destruction of property. It was not an insurrection.

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

---

I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move on

---

Not to split hairs over whether you split hairs, but you totally did split hairs.

---

interesting. It's probably not a direct quote but at least go with a paraphrase of:

you can say whatever you want outside of court but in court you got a prove what happened. This when you got a prove what law they broke. That's what they did in court and that's what they were convicted of. It's not splitting hairs, I can call it the greatest revolution of our lifetime outside of court or I can call it a stolen election outside of court. In court- you got a prove something.

In court, it was proven to be a freaking riot. It was a disruption of a govt proceeding. It was tresspassing. It was destruction of property. It was not an insurrection.

---

Explain what you think is a difference in definition to those sitting in jail for their actions. I don't think they'll buy any consolation from you.

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

---

I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move on

---

Not to split hairs over whether you split hairs, but you totally did split hairs.

---

interesting. It's probably not a direct quote but at least go with a paraphrase of:

you can say whatever you want outside of court but in court you got a prove what happened. This when you got a prove what law they broke. That's what they did in court and that's what they were convicted of. It's not splitting hairs, I can call it the greatest revolution of our lifetime outside of court or I can call it a stolen election outside of court. In court- you got a prove something.

In court, it was proven to be a freaking riot. It was a disruption of a govt proceeding. It was tresspassing. It was destruction of property. It was not an insurrection.

---

The difference is that the stolen election claim was tested in court and failed.

---

no difference.. both cases fail to meet the merits.

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

---

I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move on

---

Not to split hairs over whether you split hairs, but you totally did split hairs.

---

interesting. It's probably not a direct quote but at least go with a paraphrase of:

you can say whatever you want outside of court but in court you got a prove what happened. This when you got a prove what law they broke. That's what they did in court and that's what they were convicted of. It's not splitting hairs, I can call it the greatest revolution of our lifetime outside of court or I can call it a stolen election outside of court. In court- you got a prove something.

In court, it was proven to be a freaking riot. It was a disruption of a govt proceeding. It was tresspassing. It was destruction of property. It was not an insurrection.

---

Explain what you think is a difference in definition to those sitting in jail for their actions. I don't think they'll buy any consolation from you.

---

the prosecution already told the judge and jury the difference and they believed it. You should too.

It isnt my job to console stupid people when they act out in opposition of our laws

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

---

I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move on

---

Not to split hairs over whether you split hairs, but you totally did split hairs.

---

interesting. It's probably not a direct quote but at least go with a paraphrase of:

you can say whatever you want outside of court but in court you got a prove what happened. This when you got a prove what law they broke. That's what they did in court and that's what they were convicted of. It's not splitting hairs, I can call it the greatest revolution of our lifetime outside of court or I can call it a stolen election outside of court. In court- you got a prove something.

In court, it was proven to be a freaking riot. It was a disruption of a govt proceeding. It was tresspassing. It was destruction of property. It was not an insurrection.

---

The difference is that the stolen election claim was tested in court and failed.

---

no difference.. both cases fail to meet the merits.

---

That's an opinion, not a fact proven in court.

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

---

Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

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The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

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It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

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"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

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Quote:

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"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

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Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

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Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

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I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move on

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Not to split hairs over whether you split hairs, but you totally did split hairs.

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interesting. It's probably not a direct quote but at least go with a paraphrase of:

you can say whatever you want outside of court but in court you got a prove what happened. This when you got a prove what law they broke. That's what they did in court and that's what they were convicted of. It's not splitting hairs, I can call it the greatest revolution of our lifetime outside of court or I can call it a stolen election outside of court. In court- you got a prove something.

In court, it was proven to be a freaking riot. It was a disruption of a govt proceeding. It was tresspassing. It was destruction of property. It was not an insurrection.

---

The difference is that the stolen election claim was tested in court and failed.

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no difference.. both cases fail to meet the merits.

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That's an opinion, not a fact proven in court.

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its a very educated opinion and not mine, dont shoot the messanger. Its not my fault that the case for insurrection didnt rise to the level of prosecution

4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Trump encouraged A protest. Exhorted for it to be a "peaceful and patriotic" protest.
And when it got out of hand, he promptly exhorted supporters to go home.
They did.

---

You post fiction.

Trump told people to come to Washington on Jan 6. "It'll be wild"

Trump had knowledge on the morning of Jan. 6 that these demonstrators were armed.

Trump told the demonstrators to go to the Capitol and "I'll go with you". Then he told the Secret Service detail to take him to the Capitol.

He summoned the mob, he knew the crowd was armed, and he told the crowd to "fight like hell". Other speakers urged "trial by combat" and asked the crowd to sacrifice "their blood, their sweat, their tears" and even perhaps their very lives.
When the attack was under way, he inflamed the crowd by tweeting that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary."
"All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president and you are the happiest people," he told his supporters.
As the mob assaulted the Capitol, Trump sat in his dining room off the Oval Office, watching the violence on television and choosing to do nothing for hours to stop it.

---

Would you agree that Harris was irresponsible in her comments in the same way Trump was?

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Yes.

Are you saying Trump was irresponsible in his Jan 6 remarks?

---

Indeed, I am. Sounds like we are on the same page. I think they both were, and have always thought that.

---

Trump's comments can only be considered irresponsible within context that Republicans do not have a right to protest like everyone else does. At time he made them, he made it clear that the protests should be peaceful, and when it was obvious to him they had gotten out of hand, he issued a personal call for the rioters to go home.

Harris, by contrast, made her comments in the middle of weeks which turned in to months of very violent protests which destroyed billions of dollars of property and cost dozens of lives. Not only did she make no effort to de-escalate, she earnestly encouraged them to continue.

The difference is quite stark.

---

100% false.

The facts MOST FAVORABLE to Trump show he waited an hour after the riot got out of hand to tweet anything (2:38 pm), and even then, he did NOT tell the rioters to go home. ("Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!") His tweet telling the rioters to go home was almost 2 hours after his initial tweet and 3 hours after he knew there was violence - 4:17 pm

And that entire time, his closest friends and family were telling him to act immediately.

Whatever one thinks of Trump, he was a selfish, dangerous coward on Jan 6.

And I say "most favorable," because several Trump allies told the Jan 6 committee, that, not only did Trump know about the violence (he was watching on tv), but specifically knew Pence was in real danger and had to be removed, and he responded that Pence deserved it.

---

Who could doubt Trump distrusted much of what he was being told, particularly what he was seeing/hearing on media. He obviously trusted his supporters and did not want to infringe on their rights to protest. That makes my comment in bold 100% true. What he did say was quite appropriate. So all you have is timeline. Very weak.

You spent too much time watching the J6 hearings on the Reichstag Fire.

---

Very disturbing response. I like most of your posts and thought you were more objective. He was WATCHING as they breached the fences! And it's not the media or the JG cmtee I believe, it's what Trump's own still-loyal people said. There are abundant texts, phone records, and statements on this. It is not in dispute. He did nothing for almost an hour and did not tell them to go home until almost 3 hours.

In all of his conversations that day WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE he never denied what was happening.

---

I saw a bike rack being moved.

I also saw a lot of videos of people walking thru the Capitol building taking pictures of art, selfies with CAPO, talking with CAPO, etc..... As well as a lot of videos of people walking thru rope lines, being very orderly and respectful.

We have the benefit of hindsight. Trump erred in a number of ways, trusting his supporters too much, imputing best intentions to a crowd of overwhelmingly good people that had bad actors doing bad things, etc......he did not want to do what had been done to him and his supporters for years - overreacting, making stuff up, cracking down unreasonably, etc.... He can be critiqued on the timeline of how quickly he made decisions, but not on intent to cause or allow what the demonstration became.

I am exactly as worried about what happened on J6 as what happened in the halls & elevators of the Senate during the Kavanaugh hearings. Dems very effectively organized a mob of irate protesters right up in the grills of GOP Senators, definitely trying to influence the course of events, blatantly attempting to intimidate GOP Senators. J6 was very poorly organized by comparison. Not organized at all, by any reasonable analysis (which pretty well blows a hole in the insurrection narrative....)

Bottom line: demonstrations have happened often in the halls of Congress. Both sides get to do it. I'm sure that sentiment heavily affected Trump. And for that reason, he let it go too far by at least an hour. If you think I've been reasonable in other posts, perhaps I am more reasonable here than you realize. Beware outrage. Among many other unhelpful dynamics, it greatly complicates sober analysis and discretion.

Silver lining: I think both sides will be a lot more careful about demonstrations inside the capital for a good while. Next time a Dem steps across a ropeline, a future GOP administration should act as vigorously as the Biden Admin has done to the J6 crowd.



Even on SicEm you don't see spin like this every day. Folks, we are in the presence of a master.

---

---

The most effective spin is 99% truth and 1% spin. So I appreciate your comment very much.

---

It has been noted that an exceptionally grand lie can be just as effective.

---

"election fraud" not proven in court

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

---

Quote:

---

"Insurrection" not proven in court are two good examples..

---

Tell that to the ones serving jail sentences.

---

Please post the name and the date that they were sentenced for insurrection.

---

insurrection, an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

When was the last insurrection in the United States?
List of rebellions in the United States - Wikipedia

Name:
Date:
2014 Bundy Standoff
April 514, 2014
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
January 2, 2016 February 11, 2016
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
June 8, 2020 July 1, 2020
2021 United States Capitol attack
January 6, 2021
29 more rows




Here are some. How many do you need?

Two Leaders of Oath Keepers Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Three Other Defendants Also Found Guilty of Multiple Felonies Following Eight-Week Trial

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-leaders-oath-keepers-found-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related-us


Two Men Sentenced to Prison Terms For Actions During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach

One Defendant Was a Proud Boys Leader, Other Wrote "Murder the Media" on a Capitol Building Door
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-men-sentenced-prison-terms-actions-during-jan-6-capitol-breach#:~:text=Each%20was%20sentenced%20today%20to,chapter%20of%20the%20Proud%20Boys.

Proud Boy sentenced to 4.5 years in prison in Jan. 6 case, still says election was stolen

The judge who sentenced Joshua Pruitt, a former Washington, D.C., bartender, called the Jan. 6 riot "a national disgrace."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boy-sentenced-45-years-prison-jan-6-case-still-says-election-was-rcna44793

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States][/url]

---

So not a single one

18 U.S. Code 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

If you look up the definition of seditious conspiracy it has a completely separate US code!

18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

This is what the oath keeper leaders have been convicted of, not insurrection.

Also. only a couple people have even been charged with that one. Most of them are getting trespassing, interfering with the government proceeding. Damaging public property. No insurrection, it is just a bull**** narrative that has not been held up in court.

As I said before, y'all keep making stuff up and I keep corecting yall.

---

Of course they are prosecuted under the specific code the prosecutors feel best fits the circumstances for a conviction. That doesn't mean they are innocent of other things. Insurrection has a definition, as I set out above, that encompasses all of what you are discussing. You can try to split hairs over specific definitions, but they're all serving time for their actions.

---

I didn't split hairs over specific definitions, that's what they were charged with and that's what they were convicted of. You're the one trying to make it something else in order to win a debate. Take the L and move on

---

Not to split hairs over whether you split hairs, but you totally did split hairs.

---

interesting. It's probably not a direct quote but at least go with a paraphrase of:

you can say whatever you want outside of court but in court you got a prove what happened. This when you got a prove what law they broke. That's what they did in court and that's what they were convicted of. It's not splitting hairs, I can call it the greatest revolution of our lifetime outside of court or I can call it a stolen election outside of court. In court- you got a prove something.

In court, it was proven to be a freaking riot. It was a disruption of a govt proceeding. It was tresspassing. It was destruction of property. It was not an insurrection.

---

The difference is that the stolen election claim was tested in court and failed.

---

no difference.. both cases fail to meet the merits.

---

That's an opinion, not a fact proven in court.

---

its a very educated opinion and not mine, dont shoot the messanger. It's not my fault that the case for insurrection didnt rise to the level of prosecution

---

That's also debatable. What's not debatable is that the insurrection issue has not (yet) been decided in court.