The future automation of the workforce

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boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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Assassin
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boognish_bear said:



Would you happen to know the legend on the different color lines?
“The more you open yourself up to the possibility that good things will happen the higher probability is that good things will in fact happen.”
— Jordan Peterson
boognish_bear
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FLBear5630
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boognish_bear said:




Talk to Whiterock and OldBear, that is not a problem. The problem is the Government tester that found if, DOGE him and change that regulation.
Oldbear83
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FLBear5630 said:

boognish_bear said:




Talk to Whiterock and OldBear, that is not a problem. The problem is the Government tester that found if, DOGE him and change that regulation.


Uhhh FLBear, you need to go back and read through this thread.

Whiterock and I are on opposite sides on this issue.

I like water saved for farmers and ranchers, clean and safe.

Data Centers, no thank you.
FLBear5630
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Clean water is even better.

It wasn't about Data Centers, it is a Tesla Plant Probably one of the regulators Musk had fired. That is the piece no one is talking about, DOGE gutted NHTSA, DOE and FAA. Pretty much anyone in position to question Musk.
EatMoreSalmon
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Speaking of clean water, here is what happens when regulatory governing bodies forget their primary purpose and cause exactly what they are trying to avoid.

D.C. Water had a 1960s large pipe rupture in March resulting in massive amounts of raw sewage dumping into the Potomac river. They are being sued by Maryland and the Justice Department. Apparently DC Water knew there was a problem with corrosion years ago. Here is an excerpt from Maryland Matters about one reason it happened:

"Earlier this month, an investigation by The Washington Post found that D.C. Water had planned to reinforce the aging section of the 6-foot-wide pipe years ago, but delayed construction efforts as environmental agencies looked into some ecological concerns. The repair project fell behind schedule as early as 2019, when it was already recorded as 255 days delayed. The delay stemmed from an ongoing federal environmental review by the National Park Service, which also said D.C. Water repeatedly revised its reconstruction plans sending them to restart the environmental review process again."

This is on a smaller scale what made new nuclear plants impossible to build. Multiple agencies with competing regulations as well as redesigns for one group that starts other groups reviewing the whole thing from scratch. It is no way to actually make anything safer. The pipe should have been able to be fixed with much less than 9 years of hashing through multiple redesigns and redone reviews causing more redesigns and more reviews.
FLBear5630
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So, to ask a basic question. Why couldn't the delivery plans that met the specs. I work with life-safety devices, the plans are usually not the problem with the Feds. It is usually public comment that creates hold ups and excessive redesigns/hold ups. What were they proposing?

What you describe sounds like a public comment hold up, not a design issue. Curious, what project? It is all online, the Federal process docs all comments for public comment. In Transportation it is a system called SWEPT. DOE?
whiterock
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boognish_bear said:



what a stupid post from the candidate.

no water is ever "lost" to a DC. No water is ever lost anywhere. Water cycles from a solid or liquid into a gas, then finds its way back to liquid or gas, then finds its wat back to liquid, etc.....over and over and over. The only thing that changes is how it gets from the surface to the skies so it can fall again and run downhill to us.

Nothing is more mind-numbingly stupid than the "DC's use too much water" rot. Completely at odds with facts and reason and common sense.
FLBear5630
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How much do you have invested in DC's? The people making your argument are typically the ones that are making money off them, not living around them.
whiterock
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FLBear5630 said:

How much do you have invested in DC's? The people making your argument are typically the ones that are making money off them, not living around them.

I live 3.1 miles from one (proposed) and 1.4mi from another one (proposed). I am downstream of both. (as in, the drainage that runs thru them actually runs thru my property downstream. Strong supporter of both projects. because I'm not a neverTrump Luddite and I know it will transform the entire area for the better, in terms of public infrastructure (sewer rather than septic, bridges rather than low water crossing, etc...) and also property values. (which have already tripled).

It's not incorrect to say that the purpose of a city is to convert its water resources into tax base, because tax base (from industry, commerce, homeownership) is required to make the fluids flow. To that end, nothing we've ever seen creates tax base like DCs. Not. remotely. close.

I see it over and over and over: Water systems on wells declining inches/feet every year. The Brazos River itself is part of their boundary, yet they are unable to afford the infrastructure needed to tap into the river. So they sit stranded, at pumping limit, unable to grow their revenue (by increasing the number of meters), unable to pay for any potential solution to their dilemma. And then here comes a DC. Bringing pipe carrying river water. Running right thru that water system. Problem solved.

Now, if someone wanted to make the case that the UP of Michigan is the ideal spot for all of the DCs, I'd be inclined to agree. pull water out of Superior, run it thru the radiators, then let the warmed water release into Huron (or vice versa, or some other combination). That'd work like a champ. But the politics are not tenable. So the DCs are going where the politics are tenable. And the people who will benefit most are the little guys who've been bypassed by existing industrial infrastructure. DCs are laying pipe that the little guys will be able to afford to touch.

So simple. So obvious. You have to be a neverTrumper not to see it.
EatMoreSalmon
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FLBear5630 said:

So, to ask a basic question. Why couldn't the delivery plans that met the specs. I work with life-safety devices, the plans are usually not the problem with the Feds. It is usually public comment that creates hold ups and excessive redesigns/hold ups. What were they proposing?

What you describe sounds like a public comment hold up, not a design issue. Curious, what project? It is all online, the Federal process docs all comments for public comment. In Transportation it is a system called SWEPT. DOE?


Just reporting what happened. Do you believe there can be over regulation plus competing federal departments involved in a project? DC is likely different from your experience with all the agencies involved.
cowboycwr
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whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



what a stupid post from the candidate.

no water is ever "lost" to a DC. No water is ever lost anywhere. Water cycles from a solid or liquid into a gas, then finds its way back to liquid or gas, then finds its wat back to liquid, etc.....over and over and over. The only thing that changes is how it gets from the surface to the skies so it can fall again and run downhill to us.

Nothing is more mind-numbingly stupid than the "DC's use too much water" rot. Completely at odds with facts and reason and common sense.

LOL.

And yet we have lakes and even entire Seas that are disappearing around the world....

So yes it is lost. It is no longer in that area.

FLBear5630
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I hear you and the answer is yes. There can be. My point is that I am not sure Nuclear Plants, travelling to the moon, Aircraft, Air Traffic Controllers, etc... Are where we go cutting.
EatMoreSalmon
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FLBear5630 said:

I hear you and the answer is yes. There can be. My point is that I am not sure Nuclear Plants, travelling to the moon, Aircraft, Air Traffic Controllers, etc... Are where we go cutting.


The lack of nuclear power says something is wrong. I believe that to be the main problem. Reasonable oversight is absolutely a good thing. But if a plant's design and construction was deemed safe yesterday, it shouldn't be deemed unsafe today because some sort of incremental improvement of an embedded part was discovered today. That is not reasonable.
FLBear5630
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Regulations are the result of the political will, both GOP and Dems. If I remember the waste was an issue and the economics are sketchy.
boognish_bear
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whiterock
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cowboycwr said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



what a stupid post from the candidate.

no water is ever "lost" to a DC. No water is ever lost anywhere. Water cycles from a solid or liquid into a gas, then finds its way back to liquid or gas, then finds its wat back to liquid, etc.....over and over and over. The only thing that changes is how it gets from the surface to the skies so it can fall again and run downhill to us.

Nothing is more mind-numbingly stupid than the "DC's use too much water" rot. Completely at odds with facts and reason and common sense.

LOL.

And yet we have lakes and even entire Seas that are disappearing around the world....

So yes it is lost. It is no longer in that area.



Sigh. You go to an Asian desert for examples? The Aral Sea has been declining in size for millennia. It is disappeared in our lifetime because the Soviets dammed up the Amu Darya in entirety for irrigation. Notably, there are no data centers involved in the process. Just agriculture and the joys of 5 year collectivist planning.

Thanks for posting such great example of how crazy the critiques of data centers can be.
EatMoreSalmon
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FLBear5630 said:

Regulations are the result of the political will, both GOP and Dems. If I remember the waste was an issue and the economics are sketchy.


The regulations came about in the 70s while Democrats held the Congress. The anti nuclear crowd did a great job of overselling the dangers then and ruined the public perception of nuclear power. No one in the 1980s was going to be able to rescue the industry without some really good and expensive PR campaigns. Plus coal and gas plants were still coming online then.

The waste was a media thing as much as anything. It has been handled pretty well. And it does not slow the building process. Especially now that waste is even less an issue in new systems.

BTW. Waste was not stored in 55 gal metal cans like you see on a lot of fluff pieces about nuclear waste. It was always transported in hardened multilayered containers. One day our ancestors may be looking to use it as reactors get better.
ATL Bear
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whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

How much do you have invested in DC's? The people making your argument are typically the ones that are making money off them, not living around them.

I live 3.1 miles from one (proposed) and 1.4mi from another one (proposed). I am downstream of both. (as in, the drainage that runs thru them actually runs thru my property downstream. Strong supporter of both projects. because I'm not a neverTrump Luddite and I know it will transform the entire area for the better, in terms of public infrastructure (sewer rather than septic, bridges rather than low water crossing, etc...) and also property values. (which have already tripled).

It's not incorrect to say that the purpose of a city is to convert its water resources into tax base, because tax base (from industry, commerce, homeownership) is required to make the fluids flow. To that end, nothing we've ever seen creates tax base like DCs. Not. remotely. close.

I see it over and over and over: Water systems on wells declining inches/feet every year. The Brazos River itself is part of their boundary, yet they are unable to afford the infrastructure needed to tap into the river. So they sit stranded, at pumping limit, unable to grow their revenue (by increasing the number of meters), unable to pay for any potential solution to their dilemma. And then here comes a DC. Bringing pipe carrying river water. Running right thru that water system. Problem solved.

Now, if someone wanted to make the case that the UP of Michigan is the ideal spot for all of the DCs, I'd be inclined to agree. pull water out of Superior, run it thru the radiators, then let the warmed water release into Huron (or vice versa, or some other combination). That'd work like a champ. But the politics are not tenable. So the DCs are going where the politics are tenable. And the people who will benefit most are the little guys who've been bypassed by existing industrial infrastructure. DCs are laying pipe that the little guys will be able to afford to touch.

So simple. So obvious. You have to be a neverTrumper not to see it.
Will those two facilities be connected? I assume they're sharing a proximate power grid and water source.
cowboycwr
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whiterock said:

cowboycwr said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



what a stupid post from the candidate.

no water is ever "lost" to a DC. No water is ever lost anywhere. Water cycles from a solid or liquid into a gas, then finds its way back to liquid or gas, then finds its wat back to liquid, etc.....over and over and over. The only thing that changes is how it gets from the surface to the skies so it can fall again and run downhill to us.

Nothing is more mind-numbingly stupid than the "DC's use too much water" rot. Completely at odds with facts and reason and common sense.

LOL.

And yet we have lakes and even entire Seas that are disappearing around the world....

So yes it is lost. It is no longer in that area.



Sigh. You go to an Asian desert for examples? The Aral Sea has been declining in size for millennia. It is disappeared in our lifetime because the Soviets dammed up the Amu Darya in entirety for irrigation. Notably, there are no data centers involved in the process. Just agriculture and the joys of 5 year collectivist planning.

Thanks for posting such great example of how crazy the critiques of data centers can be.


Thanks for proving my point yet AGAIN that you cherry pick posts to highlight the parts that fit your narrative and ignore the parts that hurt your narrative.

No where in my post did I say anything about DCs. No where did I only say Asia. I specifically started with lakes.

I was not talking about DC. I was talking about your ridiculous claim that the water does not go away. It does.

There are lakes all over Texas and the US where there are visible water lines where the water level used to be.

There are also lakes that have markers where the water level used to be and the boat ramps are now looking like mini runways because they have to keep being extended.

whiterock
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ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

How much do you have invested in DC's? The people making your argument are typically the ones that are making money off them, not living around them.

I live 3.1 miles from one (proposed) and 1.4mi from another one (proposed). I am downstream of both. (as in, the drainage that runs thru them actually runs thru my property downstream. Strong supporter of both projects. because I'm not a neverTrump Luddite and I know it will transform the entire area for the better, in terms of public infrastructure (sewer rather than septic, bridges rather than low water crossing, etc...) and also property values. (which have already tripled).

It's not incorrect to say that the purpose of a city is to convert its water resources into tax base, because tax base (from industry, commerce, homeownership) is required to make the fluids flow. To that end, nothing we've ever seen creates tax base like DCs. Not. remotely. close.

I see it over and over and over: Water systems on wells declining inches/feet every year. The Brazos River itself is part of their boundary, yet they are unable to afford the infrastructure needed to tap into the river. So they sit stranded, at pumping limit, unable to grow their revenue (by increasing the number of meters), unable to pay for any potential solution to their dilemma. And then here comes a DC. Bringing pipe carrying river water. Running right thru that water system. Problem solved.

Now, if someone wanted to make the case that the UP of Michigan is the ideal spot for all of the DCs, I'd be inclined to agree. pull water out of Superior, run it thru the radiators, then let the warmed water release into Huron (or vice versa, or some other combination). That'd work like a champ. But the politics are not tenable. So the DCs are going where the politics are tenable. And the people who will benefit most are the little guys who've been bypassed by existing industrial infrastructure. DCs are laying pipe that the little guys will be able to afford to touch.

So simple. So obvious. You have to be a neverTrumper not to see it.

Will those two facilities be connected? I assume they're sharing a proximate power grid and water source.

per Trump's recent XO, all DCs must have their own pre-grid power. So they will be generating on site. They will have slightly more power generation capacity than they need, so they can add to the grid if needed. One of them will alone have enough surplus power to run the entire county (i.e. their surplus equals current county consumption). The other is using enormous off-site power generation they own coupled with backup generators that condense enough moisture out of air intake to meet cooling requirements. (by enormous, I mean they have tender offers out that could bring them to 3-4x their own needs....meaning they will be selling via grid infrastructure to other DC projects to supply them with "pre grid" power.)

They will be in very close proximity but be separately owned and run. At least for now.

Water is in abundant supply. Their tax base will pay in entirety for the infrastructure to tap & distribute it throughout the area. Will be like that for gas pipe as well. They are bringing more than they need. So we will be able to develop additional industry around them.

That of course is assuming they get all their infrastructure ducks in a row. There isn't enough to go around. Not enough construction crews, not enough wire, not enough gas pipe laying crews etc...... Many will fail to get it all done in time.

The two together, if they get everything done they plan to do and come to fruition, will have between them an amount of tax base approximately 3-4x the current county tax base. Transformative kinda understates it.
FLBear5630
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In all fairness, 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl did their share too. Also the waste was a big issue. As for cost, it takes 10 to 20 years to build for a 50 year lifespan with high shut down costs. Operational cost were high and water use high. That was the 70's and 8O's tech.

Now, those variables may have changed. If so it needs to be revisited, but it is not a stroke of the pen. There has to be science and scrutiny behind it. That takes time and political will. Climate change van help as nukes are low carbon.

Take advantage of the momentum. Dont say carbon is BS and them try to sell a Nuke. There has to be reasons to run the risk. Even newer tech like Fujisyma (sp?) had problems with natural disasters. Failure is catastrophic.

boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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EatMoreSalmon
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boognish_bear said:




And no new reservoirs proposed for the area.

https://www.twdb.texas.gov/publications/state_water_plan/2012/plate_1_opt.pdf
boognish_bear
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ATL Bear
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whiterock said:

ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

How much do you have invested in DC's? The people making your argument are typically the ones that are making money off them, not living around them.

I live 3.1 miles from one (proposed) and 1.4mi from another one (proposed). I am downstream of both. (as in, the drainage that runs thru them actually runs thru my property downstream. Strong supporter of both projects. because I'm not a neverTrump Luddite and I know it will transform the entire area for the better, in terms of public infrastructure (sewer rather than septic, bridges rather than low water crossing, etc...) and also property values. (which have already tripled).

It's not incorrect to say that the purpose of a city is to convert its water resources into tax base, because tax base (from industry, commerce, homeownership) is required to make the fluids flow. To that end, nothing we've ever seen creates tax base like DCs. Not. remotely. close.

I see it over and over and over: Water systems on wells declining inches/feet every year. The Brazos River itself is part of their boundary, yet they are unable to afford the infrastructure needed to tap into the river. So they sit stranded, at pumping limit, unable to grow their revenue (by increasing the number of meters), unable to pay for any potential solution to their dilemma. And then here comes a DC. Bringing pipe carrying river water. Running right thru that water system. Problem solved.

Now, if someone wanted to make the case that the UP of Michigan is the ideal spot for all of the DCs, I'd be inclined to agree. pull water out of Superior, run it thru the radiators, then let the warmed water release into Huron (or vice versa, or some other combination). That'd work like a champ. But the politics are not tenable. So the DCs are going where the politics are tenable. And the people who will benefit most are the little guys who've been bypassed by existing industrial infrastructure. DCs are laying pipe that the little guys will be able to afford to touch.

So simple. So obvious. You have to be a neverTrumper not to see it.

Will those two facilities be connected? I assume they're sharing a proximate power grid and water source.

per Trump's recent XO, all DCs must have their own pre-grid power. So they will be generating on site. They will have slightly more power generation capacity than they need, so they can add to the grid if needed. One of them will alone have enough surplus power to run the entire county (i.e. their surplus equals current county consumption). The other is using enormous off-site power generation they own coupled with backup generators that condense enough moisture out of air intake to meet cooling requirements. (by enormous, I mean they have tender offers out that could bring them to 3-4x their own needs....meaning they will be selling via grid infrastructure to other DC projects to supply them with "pre grid" power.)

They will be in very close proximity but be separately owned and run. At least for now.

Water is in abundant supply. Their tax base will pay in entirety for the infrastructure to tap & distribute it throughout the area. Will be like that for gas pipe as well. They are bringing more than they need. So we will be able to develop additional industry around them.

That of course is assuming they get all their infrastructure ducks in a row. There isn't enough to go around. Not enough construction crews, not enough wire, not enough gas pipe laying crews etc...... Many will fail to get it all done in time.

The two together, if they get everything done they plan to do and come to fruition, will have between them an amount of tax base approximately 3-4x the current county tax base. Transformative kinda understates it.
I'm talking fiber connectivity to scale compute power. Otherwise one or the other project should be canceled.

And my point of proximity is they could share a common grid.
cowboycwr
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boognish_bear said:




But white rock says we do not have a water issue!!!!! And trust him because he says so. Ignore this link or the physical evidence you can see. He said we do not have a water shortage. The water is just "some where else." So CC can just "figure it out."
boognish_bear
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whiterock
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EatMoreSalmon said:

boognish_bear said:




And no new reservoirs proposed for the area.

https://www.twdb.texas.gov/publications/state_water_plan/2012/plate_1_opt.pdf

Their solution is to desalinate. They acted late, but in time. Environmentalists stopped the plan cold. Now they're in trouble. They'll not run out of water, but it'll be nip & tuck.

Their plan was to desalinate brackish bay water via reverse osmosis (RO). Problem is, RO generates waste....highly salinated fluid which must have a disposal plan. Corpus planned to simply dump the waste back into the bay. Environmentalists pointed out that, over the long term, dumping highly salinated waste water back into the bay COULD elevate salinity of the whole brackish ecosystem enough to affect plants/animals. A judge agreed. So now, CC has to come up with a different plan. they'll probably just discharge directly into the Gulf. But that will require either a miles-long pipeline and/or a relocation of the extraction site. That requires a lot of engineering, feasibility studies, bid processes, etc..... Will take a couple of years. They'll get there. It'll be messy.

It is astounding how much civil engineering costs, and how long it takes. Final engineering on a 2mi residential street project in our area took 6 months. And it wasn't from a standing start. The engineers had already studied the project in the eval phase (this project vs another, this type of solution vs others, etc....) and generated preliminary feasibility & cost estimates necessary to support a bond election. I mean, you have to ask for a specific number in a bond election, so you have to do enough engineering to know how much to ask for......

The entire Tx Gulf Coast is going to have to transition over to desalination. That would free up surface water resources for municipalities upstream.
FLBear5630
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six months? That is quick. Local roads are not that big a deal. It is the limited access and arterials that get rough. But, figure you are dealing with life-safety for a 30 to 50 year period, it has to be done right. We are building bridges now with a 100 year lifespan.

The analysis that goes into that, plus the impacts to the surrounding area are significant. A current preliminary analysis for a road I am working on right now is 48 months, then it can go to design for 18 months and finally construction for 3. That is if there are no right of way needs or environmental concerns. Environmental is more than just dirt or water. It is noise, drainage, cultural, archaeological, maritime, etc... It is very expensive and time consuming. Our current design year is 2055. Transportation is planned 30 years in the future. A toll road can move a bit faster, 7 years from start to finish. Utilities are the same, a lot of analysis before building a pipeline that will be there for 100 years.

Desalinisation in the Gulf is tough because of the depth. The Continental Shelf goes out up to 60 miles in some places. What happens is that outflow gets clogged with algae because the sunlight can still reach is 20 miles out. So, they need to go further or engineer for the algae. Neither is cheal.
boognish_bear
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EatMoreSalmon
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I see where desalinization produces 3 parts brine waste to two parts water.

Will Corpus be also allowing for this kind of industry?…



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