From 1947 to 1979, wages and productivity rose in tandem, driving broad-based prosperity. After 1980, productivity kept climbing while wages and compensation stalled. This disconnect defines the Great Regression, a period in which workers produce more but receive far less in… pic.twitter.com/yprypS0Rgm

— The Intellectualist (@highbrow_nobrow) December 27, 2025

boognish_bear said:

---

From 1947 to 1979, wages and productivity rose in tandem, driving broad-based prosperity. After 1980, productivity kept climbing while wages and compensation stalled. This disconnect defines the Great Regression, a period in which workers produce more but receive far less in… pic.twitter.com/yprypS0Rgm

— The Intellectualist (@highbrow_nobrow) December 27, 2025

---

Thank your boy Jimmy Carter and his Congress for section 401 of the tax code.

boognish_bear said:

---

From 1947 to 1979, wages and productivity rose in tandem, driving broad-based prosperity. After 1980, productivity kept climbing while wages and compensation stalled. This disconnect defines the Great Regression, a period in which workers produce more but receive far less in… pic.twitter.com/yprypS0Rgm

— The Intellectualist (@highbrow_nobrow) December 27, 2025

---

How do Executive pay and Bonuses track? Did they go up?? Reward structure for leadership is F-ed up.

McDonald’s says customers are “pulling back.”

Same with Wendy’s.

Same with Burger King.

When fast food loses traffic, it’s a stress signal.

People are tapped out.

— middleclassparty (@middle_class_us) December 28, 2025

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

One positive sign...gas is $1.94 at Costco right now

boognish_bear said:

---

One positive sign...gas is $1.94 at Costco right now

---

Not good for oil and gas

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

That's how it works. It's called time value of money.

If you have less money and compound it over time you have more money. If you do it a bunch you have a bunch more.

— Dad is FIRE, CFA 🔥 (@DadisFIRE) December 29, 2025

US consumer spending is extremely concentrated among high-income households:

Households in the top 20% of the income distribution now reflect ~39% of all spending on goods and services.

Their concentration is even higher in new vehicle purchases, where they make up ~55% of… pic.twitter.com/EYUDnMSEqJ

— The Kobeissi Letter (@KobeissiLetter) December 30, 2025

US Economy explained here👇

> NVIDIA buys $5 billion worth of Intel stock
> OpenAI buys $5 billion worth of NVIDIA stock
> NVIDIA buys $5 billion worth of Amazon stock
> Amazon buys $5 billion worth of Apple stock
> Apple buys $5 billion worth of Microsoft stock
> Microsoft buys… https://t.co/bLFtCYg5Ui

— ghatak (@Neetivaan) December 30, 2025

My dude, they literally never came for the billionaires.

Elon Musk Wealth
2012: $2 billion
2025: $737 billion

Jeff Bezos Wealth
2012: $18 billion
2025: $255 billion

Mark Zuckerberg Wealth
2012: $18 billion
2025: $234 billion

Federal Tipped Minimum Wage
1991: $2.13
2025: $2.13 https://t.co/v3nidp4CdX

— Warren Gunnels (@GunnelsWarren) December 29, 2025

it’s finally clocking to y’all that there’s no value in “value meals” #mcscammed.

reminder that you can get a burger with fries, bottomless chips and salsa and a drink for $10.99 at Chili’s 💅🏼💅🏼💅🏼💅🏼 https://t.co/EcvwEdXMfo

— Chili's Grill & Bar (@Chilis) December 29, 2025

JUST IN: Starbucks to close 400 stores in the US

— Kalshi (@Kalshi) December 30, 2025

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

boognish_bear said:

---

From 1947 to 1979, wages and productivity rose in tandem, driving broad-based prosperity. After 1980, productivity kept climbing while wages and compensation stalled. This disconnect defines the Great Regression, a period in which workers produce more but receive far less in… pic.twitter.com/yprypS0Rgm

— The Intellectualist (@highbrow_nobrow) December 27, 2025

---

Is the issue with this chart that it is looking only at hourly workers? That's fine to look at that stat (I think the percentage of workers that are hourly has dropped from around 60% in the 1950s to around 50% from the 80's to the present). The missing data is how did the non-hourly workers fare? Also, how did small business do over that same time? Did business owners capture the upside of productivity gains?

Bruisers Burner Phone said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

From 1947 to 1979, wages and productivity rose in tandem, driving broad-based prosperity. After 1980, productivity kept climbing while wages and compensation stalled. This disconnect defines the Great Regression, a period in which workers produce more but receive far less in… pic.twitter.com/yprypS0Rgm

— The Intellectualist (@highbrow_nobrow) December 27, 2025

---

Is the issue with this chart that it is looking only at hourly workers? That's fine to look at that stat (I think the percentage of workers that are hourly has dropped from around 60% in the 1950s to around 50% from the 80's to the present). The missing data is how did the non-hourly workers fare? Also, how did small business do over that same time? Did business owners capture the upside of productivity gains?

---

That chart focuses on hourly and non-supervisory workers because they make upwards of 80% of the workforce.

If you included salaried workers or total comp, you would narrow the gap only slightly.
Most productivity growth has flowed to large firms, executives, shareholders, and asset owners. There's no statistical trick here, its been that way since the 80s. We're simply not getting paid well.

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bruisers Burner Phone said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

From 1947 to 1979, wages and productivity rose in tandem, driving broad-based prosperity. After 1980, productivity kept climbing while wages and compensation stalled. This disconnect defines the Great Regression, a period in which workers produce more but receive far less in… pic.twitter.com/yprypS0Rgm

— The Intellectualist (@highbrow_nobrow) December 27, 2025

---

Is the issue with this chart that it is looking only at hourly workers? That's fine to look at that stat (I think the percentage of workers that are hourly has dropped from around 60% in the 1950s to around 50% from the 80's to the present). The missing data is how did the non-hourly workers fare? Also, how did small business do over that same time? Did business owners capture the upside of productivity gains?

---

That chart focuses on hourly and non-supervisory workers because they make upwards of 80% of the workforce.

If you included salaried workers or total comp, you would narrow the gap only slightly.
Most productivity growth has flowed to large firms, executives, shareholders, and asset owners. There's no statistical trick here, its been that way since the 80s. We're simply not getting paid well.

---

I'm not saying that the chart is bogus. It is definitely showing that, for hourly workers, the productivity gains didn't proportionately flow into higher salaries. So I'm just saying that I'd like to understand more about where the increased profitability went. I know hourly workers has dipped slightly from the 50's to now (dropped about 10%). I guess you're throwing "non-supervisory" workers in there, which isn't addressed by the chart. Also, I know one of the most profound productivity gains came from mechanization of farm work, which replaced a lot of hourly workers with more efficient machinery. That gain almost certainly went to farm owners, though offset by the cost of technology, so some flowed to John Deere and Caterpillar and New Holland.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

---

Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

boognish_bear said:

---

JUST IN: Starbucks to close 400 stores in the US

— Kalshi (@Kalshi) December 30, 2025

---

yup. I wouldn't pay $7-$10 for a coffee from them to save my life.

J.R. said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

---

Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

---

Crunch the numbers you put out. How do you do that, raise a family and not have debt? I know you dont agree with debt, but if is going to be a bigger part of Life going forward. Until that gap you mention narrows, stable income is going to be more important. Or you will have people delaying life, creating perpetual teenagers

FLBear5630 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

---

Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

---

Crunch the numbers you put out. How do you do that, raise a family and not have debt? I know you dont agree with debt, but if is going to be a bigger part of Life going forward. Until that gap you mention narrows, stable income is going to be more important. Or you will have people delaying life, creating perpetual teenagers

---

The problem most people have with debt, is that they take on debt without thinking about it, much less having a serious plan for handling that debt.

Properly planned, a house is a solid investment. Properly planned, cars or even college can make sense. But spur of the moment decisions are often bad ideas, and a lack of basic financial literacy is jumping out of the plane not knowing if what you strapped on your back is a parachute, a backpack with books in it, or a backpack with a 'so long, sucker' note in it.

Perfect timing for me with both of my kids getting their drivers licenses in 2019 and 2020

Prices of basic necessities have seen a historic surge in the US:

Since November 2019, motor vehicle insurance costs have soared +56.1%, the largest increase of any major consumer category.

Utility gas service and motor vehicle maintenance costs have both surged +48.8%,… pic.twitter.com/G3pce083zB

— The Kobeissi Letter (@KobeissiLetter) December 30, 2025

boognish_bear said:

---

JUST IN: Starbucks to close 400 stores in the US

— Kalshi (@Kalshi) December 30, 2025

---

Various coffee shops are everywhere.

Many were money losers even during the best of times.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

---

Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

---

Crunch the numbers you put out. How do you do that, raise a family and not have debt? I know you dont agree with debt, but if is going to be a bigger part of Life going forward. Until that gap you mention narrows, stable income is going to be more important. Or you will have people delaying life, creating perpetual teenagers

---

The problem most people have with debt, is that they take on debt without thinking about it, much less having a serious plan for handling that debt.

Properly planned, a house is a solid investment. Properly planned, cars or even college can make sense. But spur of the moment decisions are often bad ideas, and a lack of basic financial literacy is jumping out of the plane not knowing if what you strapped on your back is a parachute, a backpack with books in it, or a backpack with a 'so long, sucker' note in it.

---

I am not Talking spur of the moment. Look at the categories mentioned- house, car, education, and even health care. They are all investments. Debt has to serve a purpose to be worth doing. At different stages of our lives, different areas of debt become worth it.

The days of saving for a car cash are quickly becoming unrealistic. Housing, education, and even required health are going to require time. Stable Revenue/income to accomplish is becoming more important than saving a lump sum, as the needed lump sum is becoming larger. I think we are seeing issues as people are not wanting to work in those types of jobs like our parents, grandparents did. How many of the young having trouble getting housing will actually do 30 year grind it takes to pay off a mortgage? 200k or 400k?

I agree on debt having to be planned, but housing, health, education, transportation are all basic items that should increase earning capacity, not limit. If we are not going to have Government paid health or education and be free market, debt is a fact of life.

FLBear5630 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

---

Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

---

Crunch the numbers you put out. How do you do that, raise a family and not have debt? I know you dont agree with debt, but if is going to be a bigger part of Life going forward. Until that gap you mention narrows, stable income is going to be more important. Or you will have people delaying life, creating perpetual teenagers

---

just living within my means which fluctuates. Already raised 2 kids who are out of grad school and on their own. We made choices/tradeoffs growing up to stay out of debt. Now, I was indeed broke most of the time.Very peaceful that way.

J.R. said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

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Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

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Crunch the numbers you put out. How do you do that, raise a family and not have debt? I know you dont agree with debt, but if is going to be a bigger part of Life going forward. Until that gap you mention narrows, stable income is going to be more important. Or you will have people delaying life, creating perpetual teenagers

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just living within my means which fluctuates. Very peaceful that way.

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I agree. But, let's look at that term "within your means"...

Does that mean, on a scale...

- having cash to pay for everything up front?
- having no debt at the end of the month paying everything back?
- having cash flow for 30 years to manage capital expenditures, operating and cost of money cash flowed always maintaining in the black?
- having a parent that will leave you enough to pay everything off?
- using financing/bankruptcy laws like businesses, LLCs and sole proprietorships?

What is living within your means? Can a person have a certain debt load, an optimal debt load, and manage their funds responsibly. Can a person use other's money to do things and pay if off, like a business? Responsibly to me means meeting all your responsibilities (financial and other), paying your bills and cashing out at the end with a zero balance or even a surplus.

Sorry, end of year. Waxing philosophic.

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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J.R. said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

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So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

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I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

---

Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

---

Crunch the numbers you put out. How do you do that, raise a family and not have debt? I know you dont agree with debt, but if is going to be a bigger part of Life going forward. Until that gap you mention narrows, stable income is going to be more important. Or you will have people delaying life, creating perpetual teenagers

---

The problem most people have with debt, is that they take on debt without thinking about it, much less having a serious plan for handling that debt.

Properly planned, a house is a solid investment. Properly planned, cars or even college can make sense. But spur of the moment decisions are often bad ideas, and a lack of basic financial literacy is jumping out of the plane not knowing if what you strapped on your back is a parachute, a backpack with books in it, or a backpack with a 'so long, sucker' note in it.

---

I am not Talking spur of the moment. Look at the categories mentioned- house, car, education, and even health care. They are all investments. Debt has to serve a purpose to be worth doing. At different stages of our lives, different areas of debt become worth it.

The days of saving for a car cash are quickly becoming unrealistic. Housing, education, and even required health are going to require time. Stable Revenue/income to accomplish is becoming more important than saving a lump sum, as the needed lump sum is becoming larger. I think we are seeing issues as people are not wanting to work in those types of jobs like our parents, grandparents did. How many of the young having trouble getting housing will actually do 30 year grind it takes to pay off a mortgage? 200k or 400k?

I agree on debt having to be planned, but housing, health, education, transportation are all basic items that should increase earning capacity, not limit. If we are not going to have Government paid health or education and be free market, debt is a fact of life.

---

I agree. A big problem is that many people do take on debt without thinking.

Oldbear83 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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J.R. said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

---

Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

---

Crunch the numbers you put out. How do you do that, raise a family and not have debt? I know you dont agree with debt, but if is going to be a bigger part of Life going forward. Until that gap you mention narrows, stable income is going to be more important. Or you will have people delaying life, creating perpetual teenagers

---

The problem most people have with debt, is that they take on debt without thinking about it, much less having a serious plan for handling that debt.

Properly planned, a house is a solid investment. Properly planned, cars or even college can make sense. But spur of the moment decisions are often bad ideas, and a lack of basic financial literacy is jumping out of the plane not knowing if what you strapped on your back is a parachute, a backpack with books in it, or a backpack with a 'so long, sucker' note in it.

---

I am not Talking spur of the moment. Look at the categories mentioned- house, car, education, and even health care. They are all investments. Debt has to serve a purpose to be worth doing. At different stages of our lives, different areas of debt become worth it.

The days of saving for a car cash are quickly becoming unrealistic. Housing, education, and even required health are going to require time. Stable Revenue/income to accomplish is becoming more important than saving a lump sum, as the needed lump sum is becoming larger. I think we are seeing issues as people are not wanting to work in those types of jobs like our parents, grandparents did. How many of the young having trouble getting housing will actually do 30 year grind it takes to pay off a mortgage? 200k or 400k?

I agree on debt having to be planned, but housing, health, education, transportation are all basic items that should increase earning capacity, not limit. If we are not going to have Government paid health or education and be free market, debt is a fact of life.

---

I agree. A big problem is that many people do take on debt without thinking.

---

Can't argue with you there! Been guilty of that once or twice myself...

BUDOS said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

The average 🇺🇸 American household now owes $10,000 in credit card debt, $58,957 in student loan debt, $241,840 in mortgage debt and $22,612 in auto loans according to a survey by PolicyGenius.

— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) December 28, 2025

---

So the average household in the U.S. is $333,000+ in debt? I think it is substantial but am very skeptical about this number. I don't think it is near that high.

---

I was thinking it should be much higher

---

Depends on if housing is included. If yes, I agree may be higher. If not, that seems too high.

---

It could be the average, but it could easily double in the next decade.

For young adults buying their first cars, homes and maintaining even low middle class lifestyle, there's no way their mortgage balance alone isn't above $400k. The average home price is $512k and IF they put down 20% they will owe about $410k. Add in student loans, cars and cost of living...I could easily see $600k or so in debt being the norm.

---

Debt is a way of life. You will see more people cash flowing their lives rather than paying things off. For the 80% there is no getting around it. The goal will be getting everything paid off by 72, which will be the new retirement age.

It is not what Dave Ramsey and the financial conservatives like, but there comes a time when how much of your life do you do nothing but pay to have no debt? So your ratios are good? But, there is really no way around it when you crunch the numbers.

(I am not the best one to discuss this with. I watched my Mom have her hot water heater on a timer and not spend a dime so she would have no debt and she could travel. Died at 63, never took one trip. A life of not even being able to take a hot shower on demand. So, I get the financial responsibility thing, but those hospice visits will always push me to do things with my kids...)

---

Debt is a killer! I don't do much leverage(only for multi-family as they are large assets). I know I could make more $ levering some thing up, but I just don't like debt and like to sleep well. I have explained this to my young adult kids....one gets it, one doesn't.

---

Crunch the numbers you put out. How do you do that, raise a family and not have debt? I know you dont agree with debt, but if is going to be a bigger part of Life going forward. Until that gap you mention narrows, stable income is going to be more important. Or you will have people delaying life, creating perpetual teenagers

---

The problem most people have with debt, is that they take on debt without thinking about it, much less having a serious plan for handling that debt.

Properly planned, a house is a solid investment. Properly planned, cars or even college can make sense. But spur of the moment decisions are often bad ideas, and a lack of basic financial literacy is jumping out of the plane not knowing if what you strapped on your back is a parachute, a backpack with books in it, or a backpack with a 'so long, sucker' note in it.

---

I am not Talking spur of the moment. Look at the categories mentioned- house, car, education, and even health care. They are all investments. Debt has to serve a purpose to be worth doing. At different stages of our lives, different areas of debt become worth it.

The days of saving for a car cash are quickly becoming unrealistic. Housing, education, and even required health are going to require time. Stable Revenue/income to accomplish is becoming more important than saving a lump sum, as the needed lump sum is becoming larger. I think we are seeing issues as people are not wanting to work in those types of jobs like our parents, grandparents did. How many of the young having trouble getting housing will actually do 30 year grind it takes to pay off a mortgage? 200k or 400k?

I agree on debt having to be planned, but housing, health, education, transportation are all basic items that should increase earning capacity, not limit. If we are not going to have Government paid health or education and be free market, debt is a fact of life.

---

I agree. A big problem is that many people do take on debt without thinking.

---

Agreed, and even these "smaller" amounts add up in multiple ways.
As it relates to health insurance, why not examine how the better run national programs do it, such as Norway, Denmark and Sweden and start tweaking ours based on that research?

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Are you ready for some aspect of National sponsored health care? I am. I am going to pay someone. I like the Danes approach, no issue with taxes as long as service and quality are there. Once that goes, they will be protests in the street...