curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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quash said:

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ATL Bear said:

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In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

And. Yet. Still. Better. Than. Any. Idiot. The. Dems. Had. On. Stage. Tuesday. Night.

---

Which of them are guilty of real estate/tax fraud?

You can keep saying that, Curt. But at some point, you'll need to prove it. He is literally the worst president of all time.

---

It pleases me that Trump provides so much fodder for your weird obsession. Guess it's easier for you to rant about Trump than come to grips with the Dem platform that spells the death of our republic.

---

It's very strange that you find joy in other people's horror. Your hatred has blinded you to the fact you've twisted yourself into a situation where you're excited that the person you support is a felon.

If you lied on your taxes, would you get away with it? Would I? Would you be okay with that?

Take a step back. Because we are figuring out RIGHT NOW where we would have lined up when Fascism was taking over the world in the 30's and 40's. I don't expect you to be able to pull yourself out of your delusion to see it. But it is fact.

Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

---

Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

---

Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

---

Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

---

"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

---

Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

---

Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

---

Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

---

"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

---

Policy in Syria and pretty much the whole region is fubar and has been for some time, but Chamberlain is nowhere near a decent historical analogy.

I really don't have a decent solution. Do you?

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

---

Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

---

Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

---

Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

---

"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

---

Policy in Syria and pretty much the whole region is fubar and has been for some time, but Chamberlain is nowhere near a decent historical analogy.

---

It actually is. Chamberlain met multiple times with Hitler and was convinced that his personal relationship with him gave him insight into who he was and that he alone would be able to handle Hitler.

Hitler rolled him. Just like Erdogan rolled Trump.

The worst part of the analogy is that Chamberlain was a successful businessman.

BrooksBearLives said:

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curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

And. Yet. Still. Better. Than. Any. Idiot. The. Dems. Had. On. Stage. Tuesday. Night.

---

Which of them are guilty of real estate/tax fraud?

You can keep saying that, Curt. But at some point, you'll need to prove it. He is literally the worst president of all time.

---

It pleases me that Trump provides so much fodder for your weird obsession. Guess it's easier for you to rant about Trump than come to grips with the Dem platform that spells the death of our republic.

---

It's very strange that you find joy in other people's horror. Your hatred has blinded you to the fact you've twisted yourself into a situation where you're excited that the person you support is a felon.

If you lied on your taxes, would you get away with it? Would I? Would you be okay with that?

Take a step back. Because we are figuring out RIGHT NOW where we would have lined up when Fascism was taking over the world in the 30's and 40's. I don't expect you to be able to pull yourself out of your delusion to see it. But it is fact.

Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

---

Lot's of projection/speculation going on there, little buddy. Your party is a grave existential threat. OTOH, you're just a moron with a severe case of TDS. Almost everything you say can just as easily be reversed. I suppose the mirror is not your friend.

Re taxes: if you had paid the small fortune in business and personal taxes I have over the decades, you might be a bit less obsessive about that. Governments at all levels get way too much and tax avoidance/evasion is to be expected. You remind me of that little wus in grade school that was always running to the teacher to tell on someone. FWIW, I'm SHOCKED I tell you that politicians might use their office for PERSONAL GAIN. Can you even imagine it? Where are my pearls? I must clutch them to my trembling bosom.

History is a wonderful thing and probably my favorite subject of all time. It doesn't take too much imagination to connect the dots between American interventionism in WW1 and a disastrous Treaty of Versailles > rise of Nazism > WW2 > Hitler's stupid invasion of Russia > occupation of Eastern Europe > rise of Stalin > death of many, many millions. Perhaps we should have let Kaiser Willy and his cousins sort that one out for themselves.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

---

Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

---

Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

---

Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

---

"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

---

Policy in Syria and pretty much the whole region is fubar and has been for some time, but Chamberlain is nowhere near a decent historical analogy.

---

It actually is. Chamberlain met multiple times with Hitler and was convinced that his personal relationship with him gave him insight into who he was and that he alone would be able to handle Hitler.

Hitler rolled him. Just like Erdogan rolled Trump.

The worst part of the analogy is that Chamberlain was a successful businessman.

---

The British didn't see Czechoslovakia as strategically important, not were they prepared to go to go to war in 1938. Turkey is not the threat to the United States or the region today that Germany's reported 50-plus divisions were to the British and Europe. The situation in Syria is simply not analogous to Central Europe in 1938.

Apparently, Trump wants out of places like that. I don't agree with this policy, but his interest in not being involved seems to align with Turkey's interest in beating down Kurdish aspirations for autonomy.

As I said in my edit above, I don't have a good solution for Syria. What do you suggest US policy should be?

curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

And. Yet. Still. Better. Than. Any. Idiot. The. Dems. Had. On. Stage. Tuesday. Night.

---

Which of them are guilty of real estate/tax fraud?

You can keep saying that, Curt. But at some point, you'll need to prove it. He is literally the worst president of all time.

---

It pleases me that Trump provides so much fodder for your weird obsession. Guess it's easier for you to rant about Trump than come to grips with the Dem platform that spells the death of our republic.

---

It's very strange that you find joy in other people's horror. Your hatred has blinded you to the fact you've twisted yourself into a situation where you're excited that the person you support is a felon.

If you lied on your taxes, would you get away with it? Would I? Would you be okay with that?

Take a step back. Because we are figuring out RIGHT NOW where we would have lined up when Fascism was taking over the world in the 30's and 40's. I don't expect you to be able to pull yourself out of your delusion to see it. But it is fact.

Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

---

Lot's of projection/speculation going on there, little buddy. Your party is a grave existential threat. OTOH, you're just a moron with a severe case of TDS. Almost everything you say can just as easily be reversed. I suppose the mirror is not your friend.

Re taxes: if you had paid the small fortune in business and personal taxes I have over the decades, you might be a bit less obsessive about that. Governments at all levels get way too much and tax avoidance/evasion is to be expected. You remind me of that little wus in grade school that was always running to the teacher to tell on someone. FWIW, I'm SHOCKED I tell you that politicians might use their office for PERSONAL GAIN. Can you even imagine it? Where are my pearls? I must clutch them to my trembling bosom.

History is a wonderful thing and probably my favorite subject of all time. It doesn't take too much imagination to connect the dots between American interventionism in WW1 and a disastrous Treaty of Versailles > rise of Nazism > WW2 > Hitler's stupid invasion of Russia > occupation of Eastern Europe > rise of Stalin > death of many, many millions. Perhaps we should have let Kaiser Willy and his cousins sort that one out for themselves.

---

I paid higher taxes than the highest earners did this year.

I paid more taxes than Amazon did last year.

But this isn't about justice. This is about competence.

This president has ****ed up on every imaginable level, and you don't care because taxes are lower?

Jesus.

YoakDaddy said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

---

Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

---

Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

---

Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

---

"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

---

Putting American lives at risk for crazies hasn't worked out either.

Dear mother of dead soldier,
We regret to inform you that your son lost his life in service of protecting Maoist Kurds who have aligned themselves with both Iran and Iraq in the last 30+ years and who have been fighting Turkey for two centuries.....

You deliver her the flag and play Taps.

---

Actually, yes. It HAS paid off. Bin laden around still? Isis WAS defeated before Trump undid it all.

Just because Trump has screwed everything up doesn't mean you HAVE to defend it. I realize he can't do anything wrong, to you guys.

Trump is throwing those lives away for giving up on what they died for. And you know what? This isn't what he meant to do. He accidentally lit the house on fire and now he's claiming he did it on purpose. He said he didn't green light the incursion (he literally had a White House release saying he did) and now he's sanctioning turkey for doing it?

It's incoherent.

So, BrooksBearLives...who is your 2020 candidate to solve these issues? I've never heard a peep from Warren as to foreign policy and we all know where Bernie stands on foreign policy.

BrooksBearLives said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

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bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

---

Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

---

Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

---

Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

---

"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

---

Putting American lives at risk for crazies hasn't worked out either.

Dear mother of dead soldier,
We regret to inform you that your son lost his life in service of protecting Maoist Kurds who have aligned themselves with both Iran and Iraq in the last 30+ years and who have been fighting Turkey for two centuries.....

You deliver her the flag and play Taps.

---

Actually, yes. It HAS paid off. Bin laden around still? Isis WAS defeated before Trump undid it all.

Just because Trump has screwed everything up doesn't mean you HAVE to defend it. I realize he can't do anything wrong, to you guys.

Trump is throwing those lives away for giving up on what they died for. And you know what? This isn't what he meant to do. He accidentally lit the house on fire and now he's claiming he did it on purpose. He said he didn't green light the incursion (he literally had a White House release saying he did) and now he's sanctioning turkey for doing it?

It's incoherent.

---

That goat fulker bin laden masterminded the 911 attacks. Big difference there, chief. That was a hard target goal in which Americans died because of his actions. And we were 100% right to send him to hell.

Trump is fulfilling campaign promises to not get us involved in quagmires with others where we don't belong that you, the rest of the left, and military-industrial complex fake conservatives are pissed off. Trump must be doing the right thing.

ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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quash said:

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ATL Bear said:

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In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

No, they're not. I love people who live life through headlines, and hot take opinions.

---

Or through senior officials in the administration.

BrooksBearLives said:

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curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

And. Yet. Still. Better. Than. Any. Idiot. The. Dems. Had. On. Stage. Tuesday. Night.

---

Which of them are guilty of real estate/tax fraud?

You can keep saying that, Curt. But at some point, you'll need to prove it. He is literally the worst president of all time.

---

It pleases me that Trump provides so much fodder for your weird obsession. Guess it's easier for you to rant about Trump than come to grips with the Dem platform that spells the death of our republic.

---

It's very strange that you find joy in other people's horror. Your hatred has blinded you to the fact you've twisted yourself into a situation where you're excited that the person you support is a felon.

If you lied on your taxes, would you get away with it? Would I? Would you be okay with that?

Take a step back. Because we are figuring out RIGHT NOW where we would have lined up when Fascism was taking over the world in the 30's and 40's. I don't expect you to be able to pull yourself out of your delusion to see it. But it is fact.

Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

---

Lot's of projection/speculation going on there, little buddy. Your party is a grave existential threat. OTOH, you're just a moron with a severe case of TDS. Almost everything you say can just as easily be reversed. I suppose the mirror is not your friend.

Re taxes: if you had paid the small fortune in business and personal taxes I have over the decades, you might be a bit less obsessive about that. Governments at all levels get way too much and tax avoidance/evasion is to be expected. You remind me of that little wus in grade school that was always running to the teacher to tell on someone. FWIW, I'm SHOCKED I tell you that politicians might use their office for PERSONAL GAIN. Can you even imagine it? Where are my pearls? I must clutch them to my trembling bosom.

History is a wonderful thing and probably my favorite subject of all time. It doesn't take too much imagination to connect the dots between American interventionism in WW1 and a disastrous Treaty of Versailles > rise of Nazism > WW2 > Hitler's stupid invasion of Russia > occupation of Eastern Europe > rise of Stalin > death of many, many millions. Perhaps we should have let Kaiser Willy and his cousins sort that one out for themselves.

---

I paid higher taxes than the highest earners did this year.

I paid more taxes than Amazon did last year.

But this isn't about justice. This is about competence.

This president has ****ed up on every imaginable level, and you don't care because taxes are lower?

Jesus.

---

At least be honest in your buffoonery - I assume you mean to say the percentage of your income paid as taxes exceeds the percentage of their income paid as taxes by the highest earners last year? Welcome to the club. Yes, we pay entirely too much in aggregated taxes and your kind will only make it worse.

Let's keep playing your silly game -

"This president has ****ed up on every imaginable level, and you don't care because taxes are lower? "

In spite of your incessant whinging, the Dem leadership and slate of candidates is much, much worse on every imaginable level. I'll take lower taxes, better judges, better protection of our liberties, and preservation of our republic any time. Probably the best we can hope for. Certainly won't get any of the above from your lot. This isn't about Trump; it's about your platform. I can understand why you wouldn't want to embrace that, though, given your lineup.

curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

And. Yet. Still. Better. Than. Any. Idiot. The. Dems. Had. On. Stage. Tuesday. Night.

---

Which of them are guilty of real estate/tax fraud?

You can keep saying that, Curt. But at some point, you'll need to prove it. He is literally the worst president of all time.

---

It pleases me that Trump provides so much fodder for your weird obsession. Guess it's easier for you to rant about Trump than come to grips with the Dem platform that spells the death of our republic.

---

It's very strange that you find joy in other people's horror. Your hatred has blinded you to the fact you've twisted yourself into a situation where you're excited that the person you support is a felon.

If you lied on your taxes, would you get away with it? Would I? Would you be okay with that?

Take a step back. Because we are figuring out RIGHT NOW where we would have lined up when Fascism was taking over the world in the 30's and 40's. I don't expect you to be able to pull yourself out of your delusion to see it. But it is fact.

Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

---

Lot's of projection/speculation going on there, little buddy. Your party is a grave existential threat. OTOH, you're just a moron with a severe case of TDS. Almost everything you say can just as easily be reversed. I suppose the mirror is not your friend.

Re taxes: if you had paid the small fortune in business and personal taxes I have over the decades, you might be a bit less obsessive about that. Governments at all levels get way too much and tax avoidance/evasion is to be expected. You remind me of that little wus in grade school that was always running to the teacher to tell on someone. FWIW, I'm SHOCKED I tell you that politicians might use their office for PERSONAL GAIN. Can you even imagine it? Where are my pearls? I must clutch them to my trembling bosom.

History is a wonderful thing and probably my favorite subject of all time. It doesn't take too much imagination to connect the dots between American interventionism in WW1 and a disastrous Treaty of Versailles > rise of Nazism > WW2 > Hitler's stupid invasion of Russia > occupation of Eastern Europe > rise of Stalin > death of many, many millions. Perhaps we should have let Kaiser Willy and his cousins sort that one out for themselves.

---

I paid higher taxes than the highest earners did this year.

I paid more taxes than Amazon did last year.

But this isn't about justice. This is about competence.

This president has ****ed up on every imaginable level, and you don't care because taxes are lower?

Jesus.

---

At least be honest in your buffoonery - I assume you mean to say the percentage of your income paid as taxes exceeds the percentage of their income paid as taxes by the highest earners last year? Welcome to the club. Yes, we pay entirely too much in aggregated taxes and your kind will only make it worse.

Let's keep playing your silly game -

"This president has ****ed up on every imaginable level, and you don't care because taxes are lower? "

In spite of your incessant whinging, the Dem leadership and slate of candidates is much, much worse on every imaginable level. I'll take lower taxes, better judges, better protection of our liberties, and preservation of our republic any time. Probably the best we can hope for. Certainly won't get any of the above from your lot. This isn't about Trump; it's about your platform. I can understand why you wouldn't want to embrace that, though, given your lineup.

---

Not to mention, Amazon employs people. It's not some abstract savings account. Companies are people. When companies make money, most of the time, so do their employees. Everyone in my company got at least a 3% raise last year. My wife got a $6,000 raise from her employer last year.

Maybe Brooks should aim for a higher job with more payoff/responsibility. You can fry chicken all your life, but don't expect to make much at it.

BBL "Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN."
Curtpenn sadly you don't care

ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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bearassnekkid said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

---

Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

---

Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

---

Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

---

"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

---

You're the one asking us to get militarily involved in an unwinnable web of madness. The difference between Chamberlain and these "crazies" is they don't have the capacity militarily or economically for domination in any broad sense. These are tribal outbreaks over century old scraps contained in a sandbox. Stop making it more than it is. Genocide is Rwanda, Darfur, and even if you want to point at Turkey, Armenia. This is Turkey destabilizing a military/militia that will soon turn its guns on them as they try to put their foothold into Turkey.

And stop pushing the idiotic take that anyone but us has our nukes. There are 5,000 airmen at Incirlik that drill monthly the possibility of some crazies coming in and trying to take them out. They did it before this, and they'll continue to do it now. This is the type of emotional and irrational BS that gets us into wars in Iraq and elsewhere.

Take your own advice. Listen to yourself. Hate Trump in some other way, not this one. It's sound policy regardless of who is President to sit on the sideline here.

---

It is not a policy. It was a snap judgment without thought. The "policy" is a bunch of rationalization to respond to unexpectedly vehement criticism.

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

No, they're not. I love people who live life through headlines, and hot take opinions.

---

Or through senior officials in the administration.

---

Or hot takes from former ones too.

Booray said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

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bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

---

Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

---

Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

---

Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

---

"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

---

You're the one asking us to get militarily involved in an unwinnable web of madness. The difference between Chamberlain and these "crazies" is they don't have the capacity militarily or economically for domination in any broad sense. These are tribal outbreaks over century old scraps contained in a sandbox. Stop making it more than it is. Genocide is Rwanda, Darfur, and even if you want to point at Turkey, Armenia. This is Turkey destabilizing a military/militia that will soon turn its guns on them as they try to put their foothold into Turkey.

And stop pushing the idiotic take that anyone but us has our nukes. There are 5,000 airmen at Incirlik that drill monthly the possibility of some crazies coming in and trying to take them out. They did it before this, and they'll continue to do it now. This is the type of emotional and irrational BS that gets us into wars in Iraq and elsewhere.

Take your own advice. Listen to yourself. Hate Trump in some other way, not this one. It's sound policy regardless of who is President to sit on the sideline here.

---

It is not a policy. It was a snap judgment without thought. The "policy" is a bunch of rationalization to respond to unexpectedly vehement criticism.

---

I don't care if it was an LSD induced vision. We're quibbling over the politics, the pragmatism is correct regardless.

Waco1947 said:

---

BBL "Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN."
Curtpenn sadly you don't care

---

I can't tell you how many times we told our children the tale of the little boy who cried wolf. Apparently, the left has collectively forgotten this old bit of wisdom. Basically, don't care what "they" say or do as they have less than zero credibility. Sadly, you don't care.

When waco starts caring about the most innocent of life, then I'll start worrying about Trump...

Jinx 2 said:

---

Would you hire the man who wrote this letter:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics/trump-erdogan-letter/index.html

---

Sure. Why not?

Jinx 2 said:

---

Would you hire the man who wrote this letter:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics/trump-erdogan-letter/index.html

---

We've had our own regents say and do worse.

Jinx 2 said:

---

Would you hire the man who wrote this letter:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics/trump-erdogan-letter/index.html

---

That document is a litmus test, whoever can read that and not think the author is a simpleton is themselves either an idiot or a shameless partisan.

BrooksBearLives said:

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curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

And. Yet. Still. Better. Than. Any. Idiot. The. Dems. Had. On. Stage. Tuesday. Night.

---

Which of them are guilty of real estate/tax fraud?

You can keep saying that, Curt. But at some point, you'll need to prove it. He is literally the worst president of all time.

---

It pleases me that Trump provides so much fodder for your weird obsession. Guess it's easier for you to rant about Trump than come to grips with the Dem platform that spells the death of our republic.

---

It's very strange that you find joy in other people's horror. Your hatred has blinded you to the fact you've twisted yourself into a situation where you're excited that the person you support is a felon.

If you lied on your taxes, would you get away with it? Would I? Would you be okay with that?

Take a step back. Because we are figuring out RIGHT NOW where we would have lined up when Fascism was taking over the world in the 30's and 40's. I don't expect you to be able to pull yourself out of your delusion to see it. But it is fact.

Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

---

Lot's of projection/speculation going on there, little buddy. Your party is a grave existential threat. OTOH, you're just a moron with a severe case of TDS. Almost everything you say can just as easily be reversed. I suppose the mirror is not your friend.

Re taxes: if you had paid the small fortune in business and personal taxes I have over the decades, you might be a bit less obsessive about that. Governments at all levels get way too much and tax avoidance/evasion is to be expected. You remind me of that little wus in grade school that was always running to the teacher to tell on someone. FWIW, I'm SHOCKED I tell you that politicians might use their office for PERSONAL GAIN. Can you even imagine it? Where are my pearls? I must clutch them to my trembling bosom.

History is a wonderful thing and probably my favorite subject of all time. It doesn't take too much imagination to connect the dots between American interventionism in WW1 and a disastrous Treaty of Versailles > rise of Nazism > WW2 > Hitler's stupid invasion of Russia > occupation of Eastern Europe > rise of Stalin > death of many, many millions. Perhaps we should have let Kaiser Willy and his cousins sort that one out for themselves.

---

I paid higher taxes than the highest earners did this year.

I paid more taxes than Amazon did last year.

But this isn't about justice. This is about competence.

This president has ****ed up on every imaginable level, and you don't care because taxes are lower?

Jesus.

---

Does anyone believe the above from BBL?

Florda_mike said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

And. Yet. Still. Better. Than. Any. Idiot. The. Dems. Had. On. Stage. Tuesday. Night.

---

Which of them are guilty of real estate/tax fraud?

You can keep saying that, Curt. But at some point, you'll need to prove it. He is literally the worst president of all time.

---

It pleases me that Trump provides so much fodder for your weird obsession. Guess it's easier for you to rant about Trump than come to grips with the Dem platform that spells the death of our republic.

---

It's very strange that you find joy in other people's horror. Your hatred has blinded you to the fact you've twisted yourself into a situation where you're excited that the person you support is a felon.

If you lied on your taxes, would you get away with it? Would I? Would you be okay with that?

Take a step back. Because we are figuring out RIGHT NOW where we would have lined up when Fascism was taking over the world in the 30's and 40's. I don't expect you to be able to pull yourself out of your delusion to see it. But it is fact.

Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

---

Lot's of projection/speculation going on there, little buddy. Your party is a grave existential threat. OTOH, you're just a moron with a severe case of TDS. Almost everything you say can just as easily be reversed. I suppose the mirror is not your friend.

Re taxes: if you had paid the small fortune in business and personal taxes I have over the decades, you might be a bit less obsessive about that. Governments at all levels get way too much and tax avoidance/evasion is to be expected. You remind me of that little wus in grade school that was always running to the teacher to tell on someone. FWIW, I'm SHOCKED I tell you that politicians might use their office for PERSONAL GAIN. Can you even imagine it? Where are my pearls? I must clutch them to my trembling bosom.

History is a wonderful thing and probably my favorite subject of all time. It doesn't take too much imagination to connect the dots between American interventionism in WW1 and a disastrous Treaty of Versailles > rise of Nazism > WW2 > Hitler's stupid invasion of Russia > occupation of Eastern Europe > rise of Stalin > death of many, many millions. Perhaps we should have let Kaiser Willy and his cousins sort that one out for themselves.

---

I paid higher taxes than the highest earners did this year.

I paid more taxes than Amazon did last year.

But this isn't about justice. This is about competence.

This president has ****ed up on every imaginable level, and you don't care because taxes are lower?

Jesus.

---

Does anyone believe the above from BBL?

---

No, he did not "pay more taxes than Amazon."
I have no doubt he "paid higher taxes (rate wise) than the highest earners did this year" in particular kinds of taxes (income taxes).

The argument that some are making in supporting Trump today is the same one that others made in supporting Clinton back in the 1990s: "The economy is good, so shut up about this other stuff." I was not a fan of it then, I am not a fan of it now.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

quash said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

In the land of the crazies, the strongmen need to prevail for peace. Don't like Qaddafi? Look at Libya now. Assad needs to survive, and Turkey will be important to keep Iraq madness, including the Kurds, in check. It's unpopular because it will involve brutality, but the world needs the brutal actors so the West can feign outrage at tasks they would never stoop to participate in.

And how God awful of a take is it to think about military options against a NATO partner because they are beating up on a tribal rival they've had for decades.

---

Who gets the 50 or so nukes in Turkey?

---

The same people that have them now, us. Or are you buying into the scare tactic to push us into another misguided military action in the region?

---

So you're saying Turkey can have our nukes?

---

Yes, that's exactly what I said.....

---

So you're cool with nuclear proliferation in the Middle East/ North Africa?

---

You think Turkey is going to take our nukes from Incirlik? If you actually believe that, then the last thing you should be advocating is going against them, especially militarily. I happen to be rational enough to understand whether we allow them to beat up the Kurds, or we decide to be tough with them, I'm not worried about them trying to take our nukes.

---

Aaaaand Turkey is using the nukes as hostages.

The. President. Is. Incompetent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria

---

And. Yet. Still. Better. Than. Any. Idiot. The. Dems. Had. On. Stage. Tuesday. Night.

---

Which of them are guilty of real estate/tax fraud?

You can keep saying that, Curt. But at some point, you'll need to prove it. He is literally the worst president of all time.

---

It pleases me that Trump provides so much fodder for your weird obsession. Guess it's easier for you to rant about Trump than come to grips with the Dem platform that spells the death of our republic.

---

It's very strange that you find joy in other people's horror. Your hatred has blinded you to the fact you've twisted yourself into a situation where you're excited that the person you support is a felon.

If you lied on your taxes, would you get away with it? Would I? Would you be okay with that?

Take a step back. Because we are figuring out RIGHT NOW where we would have lined up when Fascism was taking over the world in the 30's and 40's. I don't expect you to be able to pull yourself out of your delusion to see it. But it is fact.

Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

---

Lot's of projection/speculation going on there, little buddy. Your party is a grave existential threat. OTOH, you're just a moron with a severe case of TDS. Almost everything you say can just as easily be reversed. I suppose the mirror is not your friend.

Re taxes: if you had paid the small fortune in business and personal taxes I have over the decades, you might be a bit less obsessive about that. Governments at all levels get way too much and tax avoidance/evasion is to be expected. You remind me of that little wus in grade school that was always running to the teacher to tell on someone. FWIW, I'm SHOCKED I tell you that politicians might use their office for PERSONAL GAIN. Can you even imagine it? Where are my pearls? I must clutch them to my trembling bosom.

History is a wonderful thing and probably my favorite subject of all time. It doesn't take too much imagination to connect the dots between American interventionism in WW1 and a disastrous Treaty of Versailles > rise of Nazism > WW2 > Hitler's stupid invasion of Russia > occupation of Eastern Europe > rise of Stalin > death of many, many millions. Perhaps we should have let Kaiser Willy and his cousins sort that one out for themselves.

---

I paid higher taxes than the highest earners did this year.

I paid more taxes than Amazon did last year.

But this isn't about justice. This is about competence.

This president has ****ed up on every imaginable level, and you don't care because taxes are lower?

Jesus.

---

Does anyone believe the above from BBL?

---

No, he did not "pay more taxes than Amazon."
I have no doubt he "paid higher taxes (rate wise) than the highest earners did this year" in particular kinds of taxes (income taxes).

The argument that some are making in supporting Trump today is the same one that others made in supporting Clinton back in the 1990s: "The economy is good, so shut up about this other stuff." I was not a fan of it then, I am not a fan of it now.

---

He is referring to the fact that Amazon paid no U.S. Corporate Income Tax for tax year 2018 despite reported earnings of $11 Billion. So if he paid a dollar, he paid "more than Amazon."

This explains it a bit better. There's a reason...

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/03/why-amazon-paid-no-federal-income-tax.html

"In a statement to CNBC, an Amazon spokesperson said, "Amazon pays all the taxes we are required to pay in the U.S. and every country where we operate, including paying $2.6 billion in corporate tax and reporting $3.4 billion in tax expense over the last three years." The statement also mentioned Amazon's investment and job creation in the United States."

Booray said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Booray said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I never said I approved sending anyone to Saudi. I hear ya but I'm suddenly in the camp of bring them home from everywhere, including Korea and Japan.

---

We're doing the opposite. And Trump is full of ***** He didn't do this to bring them home. He did this because he got bullied around by Erdogan. Pure and simple.

Trump doesnt care about a few troops stationed in Syria as a trip-wire against Turkish aggression.

He got ****ing ROLLED by a better, more powerful negotiator because he's a feckless wimp. He's just incredibly incompetent. That's it.

We are NOT pulling out our troops, we're expanding them. Don't let yourself be lied to. Sam would have you think the Kurds were our enemies fighting our... enemies... who have now turned to our... enemies for help? Sam would say THIS IS ALL SANE but we know it's not. It's what happens when you elect a psychopath fail son reality star with a daddy complex run your country because you really hate that you couldn't get rid of Bill Clinton, so you hate his wife even more.

---

Uhhh, this happens ALL. THE. TIME. in the middle east.

Say hi to the mujahideen in Afghanistan who we armed and trained (many of whom transformed to the Taliban we now fight today). Or the Taliban itself that we indirectly supported through Pakistan in the 90's because we viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, so hey, we should help them. Or about 50 other examples in the last half century.

The ME is an absolute quagmire. The "innocents" you pound your chest about us needing to protect become next year's biggest enemy. New regimes, warlords, Islamist movements, etc spring up out of nowhere and you never know which one to support or stomp down until it's too late. Meanwhile they've all got our guns and our military training to attack us with. It is utterly ridiculous that we spend millions and risk countless American lives in that madness. GTFO and let them kill each other all they want. Protect oil interests and Israel (our ally that is surrounded and whom numerous Islamic nations and groups vow to wipe off the face of the earth) and that is IT.

---

Either you don't know anything about the Kurds, or you're just plain lying. Do some research at non-partisan sources and get back to me.

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Maybe you have trouble reading, but earlier in the thread I said I agreed with you in principle about the Kurds. But that's just for today. I have no idea what that looks like 20 years from now. You would have said the same thing about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the 80's. They all claim to want/need our help against "oppression." I'm just not interested anymore. Settle it amongst yourselves. You're a bunch of different sects of the same religion trying to kill each other and take each other's land. It's warlord-ville. Get our kids and our money out of there.

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Yeah. Your entire argument about how genocide of the Kurds is okay is because they're just going to end up being warlords next.

If you knew anything bout the Kurds -and I've only taken to educating myself about them the last year or so (a former employee/mentee of mine has worked in Kurdistan for the last 4 years) - you wouldn't think that of them. They've been screwed over since apportionment and STILL stayed mostly good and pro-Democratic. When HW Bush encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, they actually did -and we left them out to dry- and they were SLAUGHTERED. And they STILL stayed our allies in Syria.

But on an even more basic level, abandoning our allies and failing to support the good actors only MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR US.

Look only at the formation of ISIS or Al Queda. 150 troops in Syria was a GREAT investment in keeping isis at bay.

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Are you referring to post Iraq War apportionment? As far as the Kurds, they aren't "good actors" any more than the Saudis are. They simply have objectives from time to time that align with ours. They aligned with us against Saddam, but ironically they aligned with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. They are aligning in Syria (fighting ISIS and Syrian militias) for the sole purpose of staking claim to Rojava. And don't look into the PKK in Turkey if we're looking for "good actors".

The pragmatic reality is that the one entity in all of this that has some actual long term value continues to be Turkey. But letting the crazies work it out for themselves is without question the best approach because we won't solve decades or century old beefs in that quagmire. You'd think we'd have learned that by now.

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"Letting the crazies" work it out has literally never worked out for us. This is just a horrible, short-sighted take.
"working it out" = genocide and extermination. How'd that work out for Chamberlain? Just... holy **** what a bad take.

Also, some of those "crazies" have OUR nukes.

Jesus. Listen to yourself.

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You're the one asking us to get militarily involved in an unwinnable web of madness. The difference between Chamberlain and these "crazies" is they don't have the capacity militarily or economically for domination in any broad sense. These are tribal outbreaks over century old scraps contained in a sandbox. Stop making it more than it is. Genocide is Rwanda, Darfur, and even if you want to point at Turkey, Armenia. This is Turkey destabilizing a military/militia that will soon turn its guns on them as they try to put their foothold into Turkey.

And stop pushing the idiotic take that anyone but us has our nukes. There are 5,000 airmen at Incirlik that drill monthly the possibility of some crazies coming in and trying to take them out. They did it before this, and they'll continue to do it now. This is the type of emotional and irrational BS that gets us into wars in Iraq and elsewhere.

Take your own advice. Listen to yourself. Hate Trump in some other way, not this one. It's sound policy regardless of who is President to sit on the sideline here.

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It is not a policy. It was a snap judgment without thought. The "policy" is a bunch of rationalization to respond to unexpectedly vehement criticism.

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I don't care if it was an LSD induced vision. We're quibbling over the politics, the pragmatism is correct regardless.

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Process is important. If there is a considered and determined strategy to remove US forces from the Middle East, I would disagree with it but at least it would give DOD and State the opportunity to do it in a fashion that best protects out interests and those of our allies. Plus, it makes it much more likely that the benefit to us (no troops over there) will actually happen.

When you have a POTUS with the attention span of a gnat making impulse decisions, you are much more likely to get unnecessary collateral damage and end up still there but for different reasons. But in a much worse position because no one trusts us and because our people on the ground have no clear strategy to execute.

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Process follows the decision. Trump doesn't physically remove anything. But the decision making process in Washington is plagued by paralysis through analysis. Sometimes decisiveness works and sometimes it backfires. The source of the angst about this issue is more about the decision maker and not the actual decision.

Both really

curtpenn said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BBL "Oh, and right now, the President's hand-chosen ambassador to the EU is in the process of turning on him for his handling of Ukraine. But you don't care. You think it's funny that our President was using the power of his office for his OWN PERSONAL GAIN."
Curtpenn sadly you don't care

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I can't tell you how many times we told our children the tale of the little boy who cried wolf. Apparently, the left has collectively forgotten this old bit of wisdom. Basically, don't care what "they" say or do as they have less than zero credibility. Sadly, you don't care.

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Yep there is a wolf. His name is dt. But you know that truth. He survives because you and your ilk are too embarrassed to say "We made a huge mistake, America."