Oldbear83 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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Passing along some fascinating vote info from GOP. Much of this is public by now:

* Record % of voters made up their mind the last few days.
* Record ticket-splitting - e.g., vote for GOP Gov but Dem Senate, hurting GOP in GA, NV, AZ, OH, NH
* Independents broke hard and late for Dems - almost never happens in midterm with unpopular Pres. Even pronounced in key races.
* GOP met turnout metrics.
* GOP will win popular vote by 4% with little or nothing to show for it.
* Unusually high % of voters voted against their top issue - e.g., Fetterman won majority of voters who cited crime as their top issue; Warnock leading among those saying inflation top issue.
* Suburbs hurt the GOP overall, but strong for GOP in FL, NY, TX, and a few other states.
* As I posted before the election, GOP Senate candidate quality was around -2.5%, meaning based on metrics, the entire slate of GOP candidates was 2.5% behind an average slate. I did not get breakdowns, but that likely means some of our worst GOP Senate candidates were easily -5% to -7%, which is historically bad.
* GOP House candidates were an average +2 quality. Strong slate.
* In House, outside of FL, NY, and CA (likely), GOP did good enough to make tough races close but still lose. In other words, GOP made races close where they were substantial underdogs, but could not get over the edge in races where they were close underdogs. If there were any sort of wave (which is typical with an unpopular Pres) GOP would have got the extra ~1% it needed in tens of races.
* GOP continued to improve with Hispanics, African Americans, and Asians.
* Weak Gov/Senate candidates hurt GOP House races in PA, MI, MD, NH. Zeldin, even though he lost, was huge for GOP House in NY.
* Trump disapproval among all voters was ~60%. Biden disapproval was ~55%. Trump also worse on "strong disapproval."
* Record high approval for Pelosi - due to sympathy over attack on husband. One GOP insider believes this incident had more impact than any other single recent issue, which I find hard to believe.
* About the same % of voters made their decision based on Biden (for or against) and Trump (for or against). This is unprecedented. Midterm has always been a verdict on a sitting Pres, with leading opposition figure barely on radar.

---

Worth noting that Romney met his turnout metrics, too. They were just the wrong metrics.

The electorate is not a static thing. A not-terribly-political single divorced woman with kids can be appealed to as a single mom, or as an unmarried career woman, or as an anti abortion voter, or as a "am I safe walking to work" voter. If Republicans pick the second best of those four things to appeal to her, you leave an opening for Democrats to appeal to the first. And that's pretty much what happened. Democrats had a message which trumped ours.

McCarthy and McConnell should lose their leadership jobs over this.
They won't.
But they should.

---

McConnell warned you exactly what would happen and why.

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McConnell regularly goes to dinner parties with Schumer, and dumped money to help Murkowski and not GOP candidates in Pennsylvania, Georgia or Nevada..

Yet he's Sam's example of the ideal Republican.

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He's an example of a Republican, which is more than I can say for your guy.

Canada2017 said:

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Mothra said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Red wave magically becomes Blue .

Dems retain control of the Senate .
Dems retain governorships of Michigan, Arizona and New York.

Republicans narrowly win control of the House with a majority of less than 15 seats.

---

A prophet

---

Follow up :

A. Trump enters into a slash and burn mode against the Republican Party . Goes the 3rd party route to oblivion.

B. Dems know a good deal when they see one ….document charges against Trump get delayed . Leaving Trump to
be eligible to run for president in 2024 via his 3rd party medicine show .

C. Feds raise interest rates still again before the end of the year . Smaller increase than the previous two . Housing market crashes nationwide . Some areas drop 20-35% by May .

D. Unemployment rises to at least 7.5 % by June .

E. For the first time in decades ….malnutrition will become a reality for tens of millions of Americans.

F. Gavin Newsom becomes the Democrats political super star .
The American 'Trudeau ' takes center stage from Biden .

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All of these are plausible. I am especially concerned about A. That is exactly what he would do.

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My biggest concern is E.

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A lot of areas are going to have this issue if economy doesn't straighten up. Service industry in tourist states for one.

RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Mothra said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Red wave magically becomes Blue .

Dems retain control of the Senate .
Dems retain governorships of Michigan, Arizona and New York.

Republicans narrowly win control of the House with a majority of less than 15 seats.

---

A prophet

---

Follow up :

A. Trump enters into a slash and burn mode against the Republican Party . Goes the 3rd party route to oblivion.

B. Dems know a good deal when they see one ….document charges against Trump get delayed . Leaving Trump to
be eligible to run for president in 2024 via his 3rd party medicine show .

C. Feds raise interest rates still again before the end of the year . Smaller increase than the previous two . Housing market crashes nationwide . Some areas drop 20-35% by May .

D. Unemployment rises to at least 7.5 % by June .

E. For the first time in decades ….malnutrition will become a reality for tens of millions of Americans.

F. Gavin Newsom becomes the Democrats political super star .
The American 'Trudeau ' takes center stage from Biden .

---

All of these are plausible. I am especially concerned about A. That is exactly what he would do.

---

My biggest concern is E.

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Service industry in tourist states for one.

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Absolutely.

If JR is right about the energy sector ….and he usually is ……

our economy will be in deep **** very soon .

Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Mothra said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Red wave magically becomes Blue .

Dems retain control of the Senate .
Dems retain governorships of Michigan, Arizona and New York.

Republicans narrowly win control of the House with a majority

---

---

---

---

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Service industry in tourist states for one.

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Absolutely.

If JR is right about the energy sector ….and he usually is ……

our economy will be in deep **** very soon .

---

need to crowdfund a G4 for JR.

maybe just a lease share.

no way in Hades JR is flying coach.

no sireee.

- KKM

{ cue Dallas theme song }

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/liberalisms-big-year/

[It's been a big year for liberals. And not the kind nine academics and their trial lawyer drinking buddies insist they still are: preserved Jeffersonians two hundred years after the Industrial Revolution. No, sir, it's the hard stuff: a Frankenstein's monster of state capitalism and de-Christianization, just for the hell of it...

What is to be done? It is ferociously unclear that Republicans, especially the faction complacently yet somehow smugly headed by Mitch McConnell, deserve a single sad soul's trust. As Harvard's Adrian Vermeule wrote: "It's funny to see GOP types debating which candidates or issues would have made a difference, when the simplest hypothesis is that there is a critical mass of voters who will support left-liberalism on essentially theological grounds, regardless of the conditions it produces." ]

Redbrickbear said:

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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/liberalisms-big-year/

[It's been a big year for liberals. And not the kind nine academics and their trial lawyer drinking buddies insist they still are: preserved Jeffersonians two hundred years after the Industrial Revolution. No, sir, it's the hard stuff: a Frankenstein's monster of state capitalism and de-Christianization, just for the hell of it...

What is to be done? It is ferociously unclear that Republicans, especially the faction complacently yet somehow smugly headed by Mitch McConnell, deserve a single sad soul's trust. As Harvard's Adrian Vermeule wrote: "It's funny to see GOP types debating which candidates or issues would have made a difference, when the simplest hypothesis is that there is a critical mass of voters who will support left-liberalism on essentially theological grounds, regardless of the conditions it produces." ]

---

Correct. The stage is set. They hate you and they want you dead unless you believe in their woke-leftist religion.

I know he's being used an can't get it up ... but at least Festerman has a hot little mammi. She's probably going to be hosting bi-sexual orgies in her office.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/fettermans-wife-flamed-photo-herself-posing-senator-elects-office-husband-partly-cropped-out

That's a no for me dawg.

Shes a solid 8..


Beers needed

Harrison Bergeron said:

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I know he's being used an can't get it up ... but at least Festerman has a hot little mammi. She's probably going to be hosting bi-sexual orgies in her office.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/fettermans-wife-flamed-photo-herself-posing-senator-elects-office-husband-partly-cropped-out

---

Skunk-u+a

Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Married A Horn said:

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Canada2017 said:

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The longer the delays....the more likely Dem 'magic' wins the House.


Worse...few will be surprised or even care.

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The nation has left God. The downfall is enevitible. I still care, but, meh, we get what we deserve.

---

A bit dramatic. I imagine it was hard to think God was with us being tied to the bottom floor of a slave ship

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"We did old evil things in the past. Let's keep doing new and innovative evil things today"

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The idea that an omnipotent God has favorites or was on Team America at any point is truly mind boggling. These people who believe this are zealots that groom their children to hate people different from them.

They believe only in Christian America, only in getting their way. They are the root of modern tribalism if you can call the antiquidated modern.

Porteroso said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Married A Horn said:

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Canada2017 said:

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The longer the delays....the more likely Dem 'magic' wins the House.


Worse...few will be surprised or even care.

---

The nation has left God. The downfall is enevitible. I still care, but, meh, we get what we deserve.

---

A bit dramatic. I imagine it was hard to think God was with us being tied to the bottom floor of a slave ship

---

"We did old evil things in the past. Let's keep doing new and innovative evil things today"

---

The idea that an omnipotent God has favorites or was on Team America at any point is truly mind boggling. These people who believe this are zealots that groom their children to hate people different from them.

They believe only in Christian America, only in getting their way. They are the root of modern tribalism if you can call the antiquidated modern.

---

Well, I guess that settles it

Osodecentx said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

The longer the delays....the more likely Dem 'magic' wins the House.


Worse...few will be surprised or even care.

---

The nation has left God. The downfall is enevitible. I still care, but, meh, we get what we deserve.

---

A bit dramatic. I imagine it was hard to think God was with us being tied to the bottom floor of a slave ship

---

"We did old evil things in the past. Let's keep doing new and innovative evil things today"

---

The idea that an omnipotent God has favorites or was on Team America at any point is truly mind boggling. These people who believe this are zealots that groom their children to hate people different from them.

They believe only in Christian America, only in getting their way. They are the root of modern tribalism if you can call the antiquidated modern.

---

Well, I guess that settles it

---

If a passing glance at the Bible doesn't do it for ya then sure, come to sicem to find out about God and government.

Porteroso said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

The longer the delays....the more likely Dem 'magic' wins the House.


Worse...few will be surprised or even care.

---

The nation has left God. The downfall is enevitible. I still care, but, meh, we get what we deserve.

---

A bit dramatic. I imagine it was hard to think God was with us being tied to the bottom floor of a slave ship

---

"We did old evil things in the past. Let's keep doing new and innovative evil things today"

---

The idea that an omnipotent God has favorites or was on Team America at any point is truly mind boggling. These people who believe this are zealots that groom their children to hate people different from them.

They believe only in Christian America, only in getting their way. They are the root of modern tribalism if you can call the antiquidated modern.

---

Well, I guess that settles it

---

If a passing glance at the Bible doesn't do it for ya then sure, come to sicem to find out about God and government.

---

Will your book be in the Old or New Testament?

Osodecentx said:

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Porteroso said:

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Osodecentx said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

The longer the delays....the more likely Dem 'magic' wins the House.


Worse...few will be surprised or even care.

---

The nation has left God. The downfall is enevitible. I still care, but, meh, we get what we deserve.

---

A bit dramatic. I imagine it was hard to think God was with us being tied to the bottom floor of a slave ship

---

"We did old evil things in the past. Let's keep doing new and innovative evil things today"

---

The idea that an omnipotent God has favorites or was on Team America at any point is truly mind boggling. These people who believe this are zealots that groom their children to hate people different from them.

They believe only in Christian America, only in getting their way. They are the root of modern tribalism if you can call the antiquidated modern.

---

Well, I guess that settles it

---

If a passing glance at the Bible doesn't do it for ya then sure, come to sicem to find out about God and government.

---

Will your book be in the Old or New Testament?

---

You insert your notes from the forum wherever you'd like. I appreciate you having hard copies of my posts.

Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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We need to dump Trump, but if we go back to Romney and Paul Ryan types, I'm not supporting the party at all.

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Agreed.

Spine is a must-have.

---

Spine is one thing. Brown Shirt intimidation is another.

You can't govern to spite 50% of the populati0n. You can't intimidate people from running for office with threats. This is not the 2016 Trump and the MAGA hat. For whatever reason, no matter who is right or wrong, MAGA has morphed into a vindictive, threatening group that has no tolerance for anyone that does not think like them. That is NOT a governing party. That is a danger.

---

Democrats do that. Literally. Calling half the public a threat to democracy. Using the full range of federal and state level agencies to investigate and prosecute the standard bearer of the opposing party for 6 full years (so far batting .0000)

You need to listen to less MSNBC.

---

And the result? Nation is In such good shape. Between Progressives and MAGAs nothing getting done. GOP just had a loser midterm, chance Dems are keeping both Sen and Houe. MAGA only, Trump can save the Nation **** has just about set us up for checkmate. Trump and his cronies energizes Dems. They want him front and center. Independents broke for Dems, not Trump.

By the way, quit with the insult ***** You spout ho mature you are and then go MSNBC insult ***** Grow up.

---

Just noting the convergence of your messaging here and the messaging on the TV. The themes are congruent. You're mad we lost and you're just going to blame not just Trump, but the entire MAGA movement. That is exactly what Liz Cheney wants you to do. She did make quite a public spectacle promising to defeat these "weak" GOP candidates rather than helping them across the finish line. Why on earth aren't you furious with her?

There's all kinds of cause/effect problems with your reasoning. Is the nation in bad shape because of the Biden agenda, or because Republicans won't compromise with it? Sure, it always sounds & feels good to be an adult and"get things done," but what things? Compromise for the sake of compromise? No matter how harmful the proposals from the other side are? Do they ever do that with us? I would propose that the nation is in difficulty because of bad Democrat policies across the board, and that a return to the policies of prior Republican Administrations is the answer. It is a fools errand to think we win elections by going along with the very policies that have delivered historically bad econometric data and a very dissatisified electorate.

And, again, what we see is that Dems are going to demonize the GOP in order to turn out the Dem base no matter who is on the ticket. We cannot hide. If we disagree with them, we will be called a threat to democracy. We have to go out and smack them back. We did not do that. We let the party who turned the FBI/DOJ loose on PTA moms....the party who initiated investigations of Elon Musk solely because he bought a messaging platform that has been loyal to the left.....the party of wokeness and cancel culture and cashless bail....etc..... We let those intolerant bigots call us a threat to democracy. That has got to stop. We've got to get on message and define Democrats and their agenda as intolerant, bigoted, normophobic, and down right destructive to a free and prosperous society. That is kinda the Desantis message, you know.

There is much to criticize about Trump.
But you're criticizing of MAGA is Liz Cheney-level bull*****
It will not deliver election victory.
It will only cause an enormous percentage of your voters to give you the middle finger next election and stay home.
Politics is addition, not division.

---

You are not getting it. The MAGA of Reagan has been hijacked by Greene, Gaetz, Lake, and Breibert. People are not seeing the MAGA you are describing. They are as unlikeable as the Squad and use the same tactics. These people are out threatening candidates. Trumps is not only threatening, he is actively working to derail some of the GOP's most successful winners. You keep brushing over these facts. These Brownshirt tactics are not endearing MAGA to the electorate. What's next? Rallies against DeSantis by MAGA Republicans?

Maybe the messaging is converging because the election data and the actions of these idiots is showing that Independents and Moderates are not falling in line with these candidates. Actually, they are running away from Trump in the States that matter. The swing States ARE NOT falling in line for Trump. If the GOP continues to follow the MAGA crowds lead, the GOP is pretty much done.

As for Cheney, she is on a personal vendetta and is no better than Trump. She is willing to burn the whole thing down to get Trump. That is not in the best interest of the Nation. Both Cheney and Trump need to go away...

---

MSNBC will tell you that MTG is a threat to democracy who has hijacked the GOP. I see in MTG a person who is quite a bit closer to the average American, closer to the political middle than anyone in the Squad. Her greatest offense is that she rabble rouses in a way that Republicans are not supposed to do. Pfft. I think it's humorous, particularly to see how uptight are her critics. Here's what you should tell people who think MTG is the problem - "Lighten up, Francis."

MTG is not the problem here.
Democrats are the problem here.

The problem isn't that the Republicans are talking too far right.
The problem is that Democrats have actually taken the country too far left.

Tell me one time that Democrats have ever been "the problem."
Tell me one time that Democrat centriests have ever turned on their crazies they way you're turning on people who aren't that crazy?

Tell me what it is that makes Ron DeSantis the annointed one, and Kari Lake radioactive? I see in Kari Lake a more telegenic Ron DeSantis, but in other respects pretty much two peas in a pod. Yeah, RDS has already been elected and had a successful term and re-election. But his first one was a squeaker. He was, you know, a founding member of the Freedom Caucus, a right-wing nut, at the time he got elected. And then he showed what governance looks like under right-wing nuts (pretty damned good). If she squeaks by, and has a successful first year in office, she will be one of the brightest lights in the party.

Remember Reagan's 11th Commandment.
We win by demonizing Democrats, not Republicans.

---

Republicans have a problem with Independents, not the base. DeSantis carried the base + Independents. Lake (probably) lost Independents.

Nationwide, Republicans outvoted Democrats 36-33 or 49-43 depending on which poll you choose. The Republican problem is they lost Independents 49-47 or by 4%, depending on which poll.
In Arizona, 55%of Independents voted for Kelly compared to 39% for Masters.
In Pennsylvania, 58% voted for Fetterman compared to 38% for Oz.
In Georgia, Warnock won Independents 53-42.
In NH, 54% of them voted for the Democrat.

In Florida, DeSantis won 53% of Independents.

Chris Christie said, "We lost in '18. We lost in '20. We lost in '21 in Georgia. And now in '22 we're going to net lose governorships. . . . There's only one person to blame for that, and that's Donald Trump."

---

Here's your problem. DeSantis is MAGA. By far the most conservative statewide candidate on the ballot last week. And he was the big winner.

And your argument is further compromised by the track record of the moderate GOP: Romney, McCain, Dole, Bush 41, etc….

Reagan was the conservative, Bush 41 was the moderate to balance the ticket.
Bush 43 was the more conservative option (vs McCain).

Moderates literally suck at winning. Cannot turn blue states red like Perry and Desantis did….and they did it not by moderating but by winning moral arguments.

Moderate Republicans are the types who pound the table harder to defeat Republicans than they ever did to defeat Democrats, actually campaign for Democrats. And then virtue posture as "true" conservatives.

You didn't do that of course. But you did donate to that cause, then blame others for the defeats, as though you had no hand in it.

whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Things change depending on who wins.

The 2020 presidential election was rife with allegations of voting machine hacks that were later debunked.

Yet there are real risks that hackers could tunnel into voting equipment and other election infrastructure to try to undermine Tuesday’s vote.https://t.co/kDij1J08eU

— POLITICO (@politico) November 7, 2022

---

Geez, stop.with the fraud ***** GOP lost, deal with it. Need better candidates and message that attracts younger voters and Hispanics to GOP. This fraud crap just alienates voters.

If there is proof investigate, prosecute, convict and talk about after you get conviction. Or, it'd more Jan 6th BS.

---

I posted this before the outcome because liberal media was saying fraud was possible when they've been saying it's impossible for the past two years.

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Yeah, but it is time to look in the mirror. The fact that this election was close enough for fraud to play a role with Biden in the White House should be a red flag. We are living in the 70's and instead of a wave bringing Reagan in to right the ship, the electorate voted to maintain the status quo with these clowns at the wheel rather than give Trump and his crowd another shot. What does that tell you???

Some on here, they are doubling down into the MAGA/Brietbert line that it is fraud, media-bias and that the American people really do want Trump and his band to save the day. But, if that is the case, why are they attacking winning GOP members? They are actively trying to intimidate, bad-mouth and humiliate GOP winners that are on their side??? That is the actions of someone that is going to save the Party?

Trump and his band are the problem, just as much as Pelosi and the Squad. They are the same on extreme ends of the political spectrum, but at that point a tyrant is a tyrant. Lenin and Hitler didn't operate too far apart, even though they believed 100% different politics.

---

…do you know that I predicted GOP would do terrible in midterms and that I'm ready to get past Trump?

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Trump is the Dem's best asset .

Amazing how many conservatives can't accept this even now.

---

I am amazed at how many are defending his position in the GOP after last election and his antics this week. He is poison.

---

You might want to consider the idea that more than Trump-MAGA being electoral poison… the establishment corporate GOP is electoral poison.

A lot of people want to get past Trumpism and get back to good ole days of "invade the world-invite the world-look out for Wall St." George W. Bush type Republicanism.

Problem is there is no path to national power that way.

Everyone hates it.

Even the dire hard Red State voters that would stick with a Bush-Paul Ryan-Cheney-Romney type GOP would vote red out of loyalty but hate the actual party positions and leadership. And it would almost never take the White House again.

---

So, why do we have to like Romney or McCain if we don't like Trump and his MAGA crowd? You are making it an either/or. I disagree with that.

DeSantis's Florida is not McCain/Romney-ish and he is not MAGA like Trump, Greene, Gaetz, Lake and Briebert. He has done a damn good job, pushed back on the stupid stuff, embraced the conservative and has increased business. His one flaw, he may not be "warm" enough, he can come across mean.

---

Desantis is not MAGA like Trump. He's MAGA better than Trump.

THAT'S his core appeal. He's Trump without the warts

And you watch. The media is going to start laying the wood to him. The will call him Trump 2.0.

---

Start? DeSantis already is A THREAT TO DEMOCRAT!?!

whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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We need to dump Trump, but if we go back to Romney and Paul Ryan types, I'm not supporting the party at all.

---

Agreed.

Spine is a must-have.

---

Spine is one thing. Brown Shirt intimidation is another.

You can't govern to spite 50% of the populati0n. You can't intimidate people from running for office with threats. This is not the 2016 Trump and the MAGA hat. For whatever reason, no matter who is right or wrong, MAGA has morphed into a vindictive, threatening group that has no tolerance for anyone that does not think like them. That is NOT a governing party. That is a danger.

---

Democrats do that. Literally. Calling half the public a threat to democracy. Using the full range of federal and state level agencies to investigate and prosecute the standard bearer of the opposing party for 6 full years (so far batting .0000)

You need to listen to less MSNBC.

---

And the result? Nation is In such good shape. Between Progressives and MAGAs nothing getting done. GOP just had a loser midterm, chance Dems are keeping both Sen and Houe. MAGA only, Trump can save the Nation **** has just about set us up for checkmate. Trump and his cronies energizes Dems. They want him front and center. Independents broke for Dems, not Trump.

By the way, quit with the insult ***** You spout ho mature you are and then go MSNBC insult ***** Grow up.

---

Just noting the convergence of your messaging here and the messaging on the TV. The themes are congruent. You're mad we lost and you're just going to blame not just Trump, but the entire MAGA movement. That is exactly what Liz Cheney wants you to do. She did make quite a public spectacle promising to defeat these "weak" GOP candidates rather than helping them across the finish line. Why on earth aren't you furious with her?

There's all kinds of cause/effect problems with your reasoning. Is the nation in bad shape because of the Biden agenda, or because Republicans won't compromise with it? Sure, it always sounds & feels good to be an adult and"get things done," but what things? Compromise for the sake of compromise? No matter how harmful the proposals from the other side are? Do they ever do that with us? I would propose that the nation is in difficulty because of bad Democrat policies across the board, and that a return to the policies of prior Republican Administrations is the answer. It is a fools errand to think we win elections by going along with the very policies that have delivered historically bad econometric data and a very dissatisified electorate.

And, again, what we see is that Dems are going to demonize the GOP in order to turn out the Dem base no matter who is on the ticket. We cannot hide. If we disagree with them, we will be called a threat to democracy. We have to go out and smack them back. We did not do that. We let the party who turned the FBI/DOJ loose on PTA moms....the party who initiated investigations of Elon Musk solely because he bought a messaging platform that has been loyal to the left.....the party of wokeness and cancel culture and cashless bail....etc..... We let those intolerant bigots call us a threat to democracy. That has got to stop. We've got to get on message and define Democrats and their agenda as intolerant, bigoted, normophobic, and down right destructive to a free and prosperous society. That is kinda the Desantis message, you know.

There is much to criticize about Trump.
But you're criticizing of MAGA is Liz Cheney-level bull*****
It will not deliver election victory.
It will only cause an enormous percentage of your voters to give you the middle finger next election and stay home.
Politics is addition, not division.

---

You are not getting it. The MAGA of Reagan has been hijacked by Greene, Gaetz, Lake, and Breibert. People are not seeing the MAGA you are describing. They are as unlikeable as the Squad and use the same tactics. These people are out threatening candidates. Trumps is not only threatening, he is actively working to derail some of the GOP's most successful winners. You keep brushing over these facts. These Brownshirt tactics are not endearing MAGA to the electorate. What's next? Rallies against DeSantis by MAGA Republicans?

Maybe the messaging is converging because the election data and the actions of these idiots is showing that Independents and Moderates are not falling in line with these candidates. Actually, they are running away from Trump in the States that matter. The swing States ARE NOT falling in line for Trump. If the GOP continues to follow the MAGA crowds lead, the GOP is pretty much done.

As for Cheney, she is on a personal vendetta and is no better than Trump. She is willing to burn the whole thing down to get Trump. That is not in the best interest of the Nation. Both Cheney and Trump need to go away...

---

MSNBC will tell you that MTG is a threat to democracy who has hijacked the GOP. I see in MTG a person who is quite a bit closer to the average American, closer to the political middle than anyone in the Squad. Her greatest offense is that she rabble rouses in a way that Republicans are not supposed to do. Pfft. I think it's humorous, particularly to see how uptight are her critics. Here's what you should tell people who think MTG is the problem - "Lighten up, Francis."

MTG is not the problem here.
Democrats are the problem here.

The problem isn't that the Republicans are talking too far right.
The problem is that Democrats have actually taken the country too far left.

Tell me one time that Democrats have ever been "the problem."
Tell me one time that Democrat centriests have ever turned on their crazies they way you're turning on people who aren't that crazy?

Tell me what it is that makes Ron DeSantis the annointed one, and Kari Lake radioactive? I see in Kari Lake a more telegenic Ron DeSantis, but in other respects pretty much two peas in a pod. Yeah, RDS has already been elected and had a successful term and re-election. But his first one was a squeaker. He was, you know, a founding member of the Freedom Caucus, a right-wing nut, at the time he got elected. And then he showed what governance looks like under right-wing nuts (pretty damned good). If she squeaks by, and has a successful first year in office, she will be one of the brightest lights in the party.

Remember Reagan's 11th Commandment.
We win by demonizing Democrats, not Republicans.

---

Republicans have a problem with Independents, not the base. DeSantis carried the base + Independents. Lake (probably) lost Independents.

Nationwide, Republicans outvoted Democrats 36-33 or 49-43 depending on which poll you choose. The Republican problem is they lost Independents 49-47 or by 4%, depending on which poll.
In Arizona, 55%of Independents voted for Kelly compared to 39% for Masters.
In Pennsylvania, 58% voted for Fetterman compared to 38% for Oz.
In Georgia, Warnock won Independents 53-42.
In NH, 54% of them voted for the Democrat.

In Florida, DeSantis won 53% of Independents.

Chris Christie said, "We lost in '18. We lost in '20. We lost in '21 in Georgia. And now in '22 we're going to net lose governorships. . . . There's only one person to blame for that, and that's Donald Trump."

---

Here's your problem. DeSantis is MAGA. By far the most conservative statewide candidate on the ballot last week. And he was the big winner.

And your argument is further compromised by the track record of the moderate GOP: Romney, McCain, Dole, Bush 41, etc….

Reagan was the conservative, Bush 41 was the moderate to balance the ticket.
Bush 43 was the more conservative option (vs McCain).

Moderates literally suck at winning. Cannot turn blue states red like Perry and Desantis did….and they did it not by moderating but by winning moral arguments.

Moderate Republicans are the types who pound the table harder to defeat Republicans than they ever did to defeat Democrats, actually campaign for Democrats. And then virtue posture as "true" conservatives.

You didn't do that of course. But you did donate to that cause, then blame others for the defeats, as though you had no hand in it.

---

No, DeSantis separated from MAGA when MAGA went off the rails. Ask DeSantis if he is MAGA, he will say no, not what Trump has done to it.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Things change depending on who wins.

The 2020 presidential election was rife with allegations of voting machine hacks that were later debunked.

Yet there are real risks that hackers could tunnel into voting equipment and other election infrastructure to try to undermine Tuesday’s vote.https://t.co/kDij1J08eU

— POLITICO (@politico) November 7, 2022

---

Geez, stop.with the fraud ***** GOP lost, deal with it. Need better candidates and message that attracts younger voters and Hispanics to GOP. This fraud crap just alienates voters.

If there is proof investigate, prosecute, convict and talk about after you get conviction. Or, it'd more Jan 6th BS.

---

I posted this before the outcome because liberal media was saying fraud was possible when they've been saying it's impossible for the past two years.

---

Yeah, but it is time to look in the mirror. The fact that this election was close enough for fraud to play a role with Biden in the White House should be a red flag. We are living in the 70's and instead of a wave bringing Reagan in to right the ship, the electorate voted to maintain the status quo with these clowns at the wheel rather than give Trump and his crowd another shot. What does that tell you???

Some on here, they are doubling down into the MAGA/Brietbert line that it is fraud, media-bias and that the American people really do want Trump and his band to save the day. But, if that is the case, why are they attacking winning GOP members? They are actively trying to intimidate, bad-mouth and humiliate GOP winners that are on their side??? That is the actions of someone that is going to save the Party?

Trump and his band are the problem, just as much as Pelosi and the Squad. They are the same on extreme ends of the political spectrum, but at that point a tyrant is a tyrant. Lenin and Hitler didn't operate too far apart, even though they believed 100% different politics.

---

…do you know that I predicted GOP would do terrible in midterms and that I'm ready to get past Trump?

---

Trump is the Dem's best asset .

Amazing how many conservatives can't accept this even now.

---

I am amazed at how many are defending his position in the GOP after last election and his antics this week. He is poison.

---

You might want to consider the idea that more than Trump-MAGA being electoral poison… the establishment corporate GOP is electoral poison.

A lot of people want to get past Trumpism and get back to good ole days of "invade the world-invite the world-look out for Wall St." George W. Bush type Republicanism.

Problem is there is no path to national power that way.

Everyone hates it.

Even the dire hard Red State voters that would stick with a Bush-Paul Ryan-Cheney-Romney type GOP would vote red out of loyalty but hate the actual party positions and leadership. And it would almost never take the White House again.

---

So, why do we have to like Romney or McCain if we don't like Trump and his MAGA crowd? You are making it an either/or. I disagree with that.

DeSantis's Florida is not McCain/Romney-ish and he is not MAGA like Trump, Greene, Gaetz, Lake and Briebert. He has done a damn good job, pushed back on the stupid stuff, embraced the conservative and has increased business. His one flaw, he may not be "warm" enough, he can come across mean.

---

Desantis is not MAGA like Trump. He's MAGA better than Trump.

THAT'S his core appeal. He's Trump without the warts

And you watch. The media is going to start laying the wood to him. The will call him Trump 2.0.

---

Start? DeSantis already is A THREAT TO DEMOCRAT!?!

---

"Glass Jaw"
"more dangerous"
etc.....

It's already started.

The moderate GOP'er thinks we can have a high, wide, handsome candidate that will be immune to all such critique. What sophomorically unrealistic thinking. It does not matter how nice or proper or gentlemanly a candidate can be. If he/she is running against a Democrat, he/she will be a threat to democracy. Democrats live in a world where they are the good guys and anyone who disagrees with them is a proto-fascist. Worst of all, they genuinely believe it.

We have to do a better job of pointing out that the true threat to democracy is the Democrat Party. Desantis is onto that them when he talks about liberty and freedom. Trump addresses it differently, and obliquely - "drain the swamp" "these people are crooks/incompetent/stupid." Both are on the relevant points to make. Primary voters are going to decide which messaging will be more effective.

whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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We need to dump Trump, but if we go back to Romney and Paul Ryan types, I'm not supporting the party at all.

---

Agreed.

Spine is a must-have.

---

Spine is one thing. Brown Shirt intimidation is another.

You can't govern to spite 50% of the populati0n. You can't intimidate people from running for office with threats. This is not the 2016 Trump and the MAGA hat. For whatever reason, no matter who is right or wrong, MAGA has morphed into a vindictive, threatening group that has no tolerance for anyone that does not think like them. That is NOT a governing party. That is a danger.

---

Democrats do that. Literally. Calling half the public a threat to democracy. Using the full range of federal and state level agencies to investigate and prosecute the standard bearer of the opposing party for 6 full years (so far batting .0000)

You need to listen to less MSNBC.

---

And the result? Nation is In such good shape. Between Progressives and MAGAs nothing getting done. GOP just had a loser midterm, chance Dems are keeping both Sen and Houe. MAGA only, Trump can save the Nation **** has just about set us up for checkmate. Trump and his cronies energizes Dems. They want him front and center. Independents broke for Dems, not Trump.

By the way, quit with the insult ***** You spout ho mature you are and then go MSNBC insult ***** Grow up.

---

Just noting the convergence of your messaging here and the messaging on the TV. The themes are congruent. You're mad we lost and you're just going to blame not just Trump, but the entire MAGA movement. That is exactly what Liz Cheney wants you to do. She did make quite a public spectacle promising to defeat these "weak" GOP candidates rather than helping them across the finish line. Why on earth aren't you furious with her?

There's all kinds of cause/effect problems with your reasoning. Is the nation in bad shape because of the Biden agenda, or because Republicans won't compromise with it? Sure, it always sounds & feels good to be an adult and"get things done," but what things? Compromise for the sake of compromise? No matter how harmful the proposals from the other side are? Do they ever do that with us? I would propose that the nation is in difficulty because of bad Democrat policies across the board, and that a return to the policies of prior Republican Administrations is the answer. It is a fools errand to think we win elections by going along with the very policies that have delivered historically bad econometric data and a very dissatisified electorate.

And, again, what we see is that Dems are going to demonize the GOP in order to turn out the Dem base no matter who is on the ticket. We cannot hide. If we disagree with them, we will be called a threat to democracy. We have to go out and smack them back. We did not do that. We let the party who turned the FBI/DOJ loose on PTA moms....the party who initiated investigations of Elon Musk solely because he bought a messaging platform that has been loyal to the left.....the party of wokeness and cancel culture and cashless bail....etc..... We let those intolerant bigots call us a threat to democracy. That has got to stop. We've got to get on message and define Democrats and their agenda as intolerant, bigoted, normophobic, and down right destructive to a free and prosperous society. That is kinda the Desantis message, you know.

There is much to criticize about Trump.
But you're criticizing of MAGA is Liz Cheney-level bull*****
It will not deliver election victory.
It will only cause an enormous percentage of your voters to give you the middle finger next election and stay home.
Politics is addition, not division.

---

You are not getting it. The MAGA of Reagan has been hijacked by Greene, Gaetz, Lake, and Breibert. People are not seeing the MAGA you are describing. They are as unlikeable as the Squad and use the same tactics. These people are out threatening candidates. Trumps is not only threatening, he is actively working to derail some of the GOP's most successful winners. You keep brushing over these facts. These Brownshirt tactics are not endearing MAGA to the electorate. What's next? Rallies against DeSantis by MAGA Republicans?

Maybe the messaging is converging because the election data and the actions of these idiots is showing that Independents and Moderates are not falling in line with these candidates. Actually, they are running away from Trump in the States that matter. The swing States ARE NOT falling in line for Trump. If the GOP continues to follow the MAGA crowds lead, the GOP is pretty much done.

As for Cheney, she is on a personal vendetta and is no better than Trump. She is willing to burn the whole thing down to get Trump. That is not in the best interest of the Nation. Both Cheney and Trump need to go away...

---

MSNBC will tell you that MTG is a threat to democracy who has hijacked the GOP. I see in MTG a person who is quite a bit closer to the average American, closer to the political middle than anyone in the Squad. Her greatest offense is that she rabble rouses in a way that Republicans are not supposed to do. Pfft. I think it's humorous, particularly to see how uptight are her critics. Here's what you should tell people who think MTG is the problem - "Lighten up, Francis."

MTG is not the problem here.
Democrats are the problem here.

The problem isn't that the Republicans are talking too far right.
The problem is that Democrats have actually taken the country too far left.

Tell me one time that Democrats have ever been "the problem."
Tell me one time that Democrat centriests have ever turned on their crazies they way you're turning on people who aren't that crazy?

Tell me what it is that makes Ron DeSantis the annointed one, and Kari Lake radioactive? I see in Kari Lake a more telegenic Ron DeSantis, but in other respects pretty much two peas in a pod. Yeah, RDS has already been elected and had a successful term and re-election. But his first one was a squeaker. He was, you know, a founding member of the Freedom Caucus, a right-wing nut, at the time he got elected. And then he showed what governance looks like under right-wing nuts (pretty damned good). If she squeaks by, and has a successful first year in office, she will be one of the brightest lights in the party.

Remember Reagan's 11th Commandment.
We win by demonizing Democrats, not Republicans.

---

Republicans have a problem with Independents, not the base. DeSantis carried the base + Independents. Lake (probably) lost Independents.

Nationwide, Republicans outvoted Democrats 36-33 or 49-43 depending on which poll you choose. The Republican problem is they lost Independents 49-47 or by 4%, depending on which poll.
In Arizona, 55%of Independents voted for Kelly compared to 39% for Masters.
In Pennsylvania, 58% voted for Fetterman compared to 38% for Oz.
In Georgia, Warnock won Independents 53-42.
In NH, 54% of them voted for the Democrat.

In Florida, DeSantis won 53% of Independents.

Chris Christie said, "We lost in '18. We lost in '20. We lost in '21 in Georgia. And now in '22 we're going to net lose governorships. . . . There's only one person to blame for that, and that's Donald Trump."

---

Here's your problem. DeSantis is MAGA. By far the most conservative statewide candidate on the ballot last week. And he was the big winner.

And your argument is further compromised by the track record of the moderate GOP: Romney, McCain, Dole, Bush 41, etc….

Reagan was the conservative, Bush 41 was the moderate to balance the ticket.
Bush 43 was the more conservative option (vs McCain).

Moderates literally suck at winning. Cannot turn blue states red like Perry and Desantis did….and they did it not by moderating but by winning moral arguments.

Moderate Republicans are the types who pound the table harder to defeat Republicans than they ever did to defeat Democrats, actually campaign for Democrats. And then virtue posture as "true" conservatives.

You didn't do that of course. But you did donate to that cause, then blame others for the defeats, as though you had no hand in it.

---

No, DeSantis separated from MAGA when MAGA went off the rails. Ask DeSantis if he is MAGA, he will say no, not what Trump has done to it.

---

Now you're making stuff up. This is a guy who attacked Disney and stood on a stage and said "Florida is where woke comes to die."

---

He shys away from a direct connection to Trump but stands on the same platform of ideals. He cuts off the last 10%(the crazy stuff that all of MAGA is now labeled as) and that seems to be enough for everybody.

whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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We need to dump Trump, but if we go back to Romney and Paul Ryan types, I'm not supporting the party at all.

---

Agreed.

Spine is a must-have.

---

Spine is one thing. Brown Shirt intimidation is another.

You can't govern to spite 50% of the populati0n. You can't intimidate people from running for office with threats. This is not the 2016 Trump and the MAGA hat. For whatever reason, no matter who is right or wrong, MAGA has morphed into a vindictive, threatening group that has no tolerance for anyone that does not think like them. That is NOT a governing party. That is a danger.

---

Democrats do that. Literally. Calling half the public a threat to democracy. Using the full range of federal and state level agencies to investigate and prosecute the standard bearer of the opposing party for 6 full years (so far batting .0000)

You need to listen to less MSNBC.

---

And the result? Nation is In such good shape. Between Progressives and MAGAs nothing getting done. GOP just had a loser midterm, chance Dems are keeping both Sen and Houe. MAGA only, Trump can save the Nation **** has just about set us up for checkmate. Trump and his cronies energizes Dems. They want him front and center. Independents broke for Dems, not Trump.

By the way, quit with the insult ***** You spout ho mature you are and then go MSNBC insult ***** Grow up.

---

Just noting the convergence of your messaging here and the messaging on the TV. The themes are congruent. You're mad we lost and you're just going to blame not just Trump, but the entire MAGA movement. That is exactly what Liz Cheney wants you to do. She did make quite a public spectacle promising to defeat these "weak" GOP candidates rather than helping them across the finish line. Why on earth aren't you furious with her?

There's all kinds of cause/effect problems with your reasoning. Is the nation in bad shape because of the Biden agenda, or because Republicans won't compromise with it? Sure, it always sounds & feels good to be an adult and"get things done," but what things? Compromise for the sake of compromise? No matter how harmful the proposals from the other side are? Do they ever do that with us? I would propose that the nation is in difficulty because of bad Democrat policies across the board, and that a return to the policies of prior Republican Administrations is the answer. It is a fools errand to think we win elections by going along with the very policies that have delivered historically bad econometric data and a very dissatisified electorate.

And, again, what we see is that Dems are going to demonize the GOP in order to turn out the Dem base no matter who is on the ticket. We cannot hide. If we disagree with them, we will be called a threat to democracy. We have to go out and smack them back. We did not do that. We let the party who turned the FBI/DOJ loose on PTA moms....the party who initiated investigations of Elon Musk solely because he bought a messaging platform that has been loyal to the left.....the party of wokeness and cancel culture and cashless bail....etc..... We let those intolerant bigots call us a threat to democracy. That has got to stop. We've got to get on message and define Democrats and their agenda as intolerant, bigoted, normophobic, and down right destructive to a free and prosperous society. That is kinda the Desantis message, you know.

There is much to criticize about Trump.
But you're criticizing of MAGA is Liz Cheney-level bull*****
It will not deliver election victory.
It will only cause an enormous percentage of your voters to give you the middle finger next election and stay home.
Politics is addition, not division.

---

You are not getting it. The MAGA of Reagan has been hijacked by Greene, Gaetz, Lake, and Breibert. People are not seeing the MAGA you are describing. They are as unlikeable as the Squad and use the same tactics. These people are out threatening candidates. Trumps is not only threatening, he is actively working to derail some of the GOP's most successful winners. You keep brushing over these facts. These Brownshirt tactics are not endearing MAGA to the electorate. What's next? Rallies against DeSantis by MAGA Republicans?

Maybe the messaging is converging because the election data and the actions of these idiots is showing that Independents and Moderates are not falling in line with these candidates. Actually, they are running away from Trump in the States that matter. The swing States ARE NOT falling in line for Trump. If the GOP continues to follow the MAGA crowds lead, the GOP is pretty much done.

As for Cheney, she is on a personal vendetta and is no better than Trump. She is willing to burn the whole thing down to get Trump. That is not in the best interest of the Nation. Both Cheney and Trump need to go away...

---

MSNBC will tell you that MTG is a threat to democracy who has hijacked the GOP. I see in MTG a person who is quite a bit closer to the average American, closer to the political middle than anyone in the Squad. Her greatest offense is that she rabble rouses in a way that Republicans are not supposed to do. Pfft. I think it's humorous, particularly to see how uptight are her critics. Here's what you should tell people who think MTG is the problem - "Lighten up, Francis."

MTG is not the problem here.
Democrats are the problem here.

The problem isn't that the Republicans are talking too far right.
The problem is that Democrats have actually taken the country too far left.

Tell me one time that Democrats have ever been "the problem."
Tell me one time that Democrat centriests have ever turned on their crazies they way you're turning on people who aren't that crazy?

Tell me what it is that makes Ron DeSantis the annointed one, and Kari Lake radioactive? I see in Kari Lake a more telegenic Ron DeSantis, but in other respects pretty much two peas in a pod. Yeah, RDS has already been elected and had a successful term and re-election. But his first one was a squeaker. He was, you know, a founding member of the Freedom Caucus, a right-wing nut, at the time he got elected. And then he showed what governance looks like under right-wing nuts (pretty damned good). If she squeaks by, and has a successful first year in office, she will be one of the brightest lights in the party.

Remember Reagan's 11th Commandment.
We win by demonizing Democrats, not Republicans.

---

Republicans have a problem with Independents, not the base. DeSantis carried the base + Independents. Lake (probably) lost Independents.

Nationwide, Republicans outvoted Democrats 36-33 or 49-43 depending on which poll you choose. The Republican problem is they lost Independents 49-47 or by 4%, depending on which poll.
In Arizona, 55%of Independents voted for Kelly compared to 39% for Masters.
In Pennsylvania, 58% voted for Fetterman compared to 38% for Oz.
In Georgia, Warnock won Independents 53-42.
In NH, 54% of them voted for the Democrat.

In Florida, DeSantis won 53% of Independents.

Chris Christie said, "We lost in '18. We lost in '20. We lost in '21 in Georgia. And now in '22 we're going to net lose governorships. . . . There's only one person to blame for that, and that's Donald Trump."

---

Here's your problem. DeSantis is MAGA. By far the most conservative statewide candidate on the ballot last week. And he was the big winner.

And your argument is further compromised by the track record of the moderate GOP: Romney, McCain, Dole, Bush 41, etc….

Reagan was the conservative, Bush 41 was the moderate to balance the ticket.
Bush 43 was the more conservative option (vs McCain).

Moderates literally suck at winning. Cannot turn blue states red like Perry and Desantis did….and they did it not by moderating but by winning moral arguments.

Moderate Republicans are the types who pound the table harder to defeat Republicans than they ever did to defeat Democrats, actually campaign for Democrats. And then virtue posture as "true" conservatives.

You didn't do that of course. But you did donate to that cause, then blame others for the defeats, as though you had no hand in it.

---

No, DeSantis separated from MAGA when MAGA went off the rails. Ask DeSantis if he is MAGA, he will say no, not what Trump has done to it.

---

Now you're making stuff up. This is a guy who attacked Disney and stood on a stage and said "Florida is where woke comes to die."

---

So, not wanting transgender taught to elementary school students and keeping sexual orientation out of elementary schools is now a MAGA position???? If you don't want your 8 year old being told about sex changes, you are a MAGA? Please, that is ridiculous!

DeSantis is not the 2022 MAGA candidate! He is actually the anti-MAGA guy. Trump hates him and Trumps followers are trying to sabatoge him. DeSantis recognized when MAGA made the crazy left turn and got off. He agrees on the common sense issues, but he is not MAGA. I work in government in Florida, he does not govern or play up the MAGA stuff. Much more corporate, innovation, economic development, and meat/potatoes education. Media may try to paint him as MAGA, but not the way he is governing by a long shot

whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

We need to dump Trump, but if we go back to Romney and Paul Ryan types, I'm not supporting the party at all.

---

Agreed.

Spine is a must-have.

---

Spine is one thing. Brown Shirt intimidation is another.

You can't govern to spite 50% of the populati0n. You can't intimidate people from running for office with threats. This is not the 2016 Trump and the MAGA hat. For whatever reason, no matter who is right or wrong, MAGA has morphed into a vindictive, threatening group that has no tolerance for anyone that does not think like them. That is NOT a governing party. That is a danger.

---

Democrats do that. Literally. Calling half the public a threat to democracy. Using the full range of federal and state level agencies to investigate and prosecute the standard bearer of the opposing party for 6 full years (so far batting .0000)

You need to listen to less MSNBC.

---

And the result? Nation is In such good shape. Between Progressives and MAGAs nothing getting done. GOP just had a loser midterm, chance Dems are keeping both Sen and Houe. MAGA only, Trump can save the Nation **** has just about set us up for checkmate. Trump and his cronies energizes Dems. They want him front and center. Independents broke for Dems, not Trump.

By the way, quit with the insult ***** You spout ho mature you are and then go MSNBC insult ***** Grow up.

---

Just noting the convergence of your messaging here and the messaging on the TV. The themes are congruent. You're mad we lost and you're just going to blame not just Trump, but the entire MAGA movement. That is exactly what Liz Cheney wants you to do. She did make quite a public spectacle promising to defeat these "weak" GOP candidates rather than helping them across the finish line. Why on earth aren't you furious with her?

There's all kinds of cause/effect problems with your reasoning. Is the nation in bad shape because of the Biden agenda, or because Republicans won't compromise with it? Sure, it always sounds & feels good to be an adult and"get things done," but what things? Compromise for the sake of compromise? No matter how harmful the proposals from the other side are? Do they ever do that with us? I would propose that the nation is in difficulty because of bad Democrat policies across the board, and that a return to the policies of prior Republican Administrations is the answer. It is a fools errand to think we win elections by going along with the very policies that have delivered historically bad econometric data and a very dissatisified electorate.

And, again, what we see is that Dems are going to demonize the GOP in order to turn out the Dem base no matter who is on the ticket. We cannot hide. If we disagree with them, we will be called a threat to democracy. We have to go out and smack them back. We did not do that. We let the party who turned the FBI/DOJ loose on PTA moms....the party who initiated investigations of Elon Musk solely because he bought a messaging platform that has been loyal to the left.....the party of wokeness and cancel culture and cashless bail....etc..... We let those intolerant bigots call us a threat to democracy. That has got to stop. We've got to get on message and define Democrats and their agenda as intolerant, bigoted, normophobic, and down right destructive to a free and prosperous society. That is kinda the Desantis message, you know.

There is much to criticize about Trump.
But you're criticizing of MAGA is Liz Cheney-level bull*****
It will not deliver election victory.
It will only cause an enormous percentage of your voters to give you the middle finger next election and stay home.
Politics is addition, not division.

---

You are not getting it. The MAGA of Reagan has been hijacked by Greene, Gaetz, Lake, and Breibert. People are not seeing the MAGA you are describing. They are as unlikeable as the Squad and use the same tactics. These people are out threatening candidates. Trumps is not only threatening, he is actively working to derail some of the GOP's most successful winners. You keep brushing over these facts. These Brownshirt tactics are not endearing MAGA to the electorate. What's next? Rallies against DeSantis by MAGA Republicans?

Maybe the messaging is converging because the election data and the actions of these idiots is showing that Independents and Moderates are not falling in line with these candidates. Actually, they are running away from Trump in the States that matter. The swing States ARE NOT falling in line for Trump. If the GOP continues to follow the MAGA crowds lead, the GOP is pretty much done.

As for Cheney, she is on a personal vendetta and is no better than Trump. She is willing to burn the whole thing down to get Trump. That is not in the best interest of the Nation. Both Cheney and Trump need to go away...

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MSNBC will tell you that MTG is a threat to democracy who has hijacked the GOP. I see in MTG a person who is quite a bit closer to the average American, closer to the political middle than anyone in the Squad. Her greatest offense is that she rabble rouses in a way that Republicans are not supposed to do. Pfft. I think it's humorous, particularly to see how uptight are her critics. Here's what you should tell people who think MTG is the problem - "Lighten up, Francis."

MTG is not the problem here.
Democrats are the problem here.

The problem isn't that the Republicans are talking too far right.
The problem is that Democrats have actually taken the country too far left.

Tell me one time that Democrats have ever been "the problem."
Tell me one time that Democrat centriests have ever turned on their crazies they way you're turning on people who aren't that crazy?

Tell me what it is that makes Ron DeSantis the annointed one, and Kari Lake radioactive? I see in Kari Lake a more telegenic Ron DeSantis, but in other respects pretty much two peas in a pod. Yeah, RDS has already been elected and had a successful term and re-election. But his first one was a squeaker. He was, you know, a founding member of the Freedom Caucus, a right-wing nut, at the time he got elected. And then he showed what governance looks like under right-wing nuts (pretty damned good). If she squeaks by, and has a successful first year in office, she will be one of the brightest lights in the party.

Remember Reagan's 11th Commandment.
We win by demonizing Democrats, not Republicans.

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Republicans have a problem with Independents, not the base. DeSantis carried the base + Independents. Lake (probably) lost Independents.

Nationwide, Republicans outvoted Democrats 36-33 or 49-43 depending on which poll you choose. The Republican problem is they lost Independents 49-47 or by 4%, depending on which poll.
In Arizona, 55%of Independents voted for Kelly compared to 39% for Masters.
In Pennsylvania, 58% voted for Fetterman compared to 38% for Oz.
In Georgia, Warnock won Independents 53-42.
In NH, 54% of them voted for the Democrat.

In Florida, DeSantis won 53% of Independents.

Chris Christie said, "We lost in '18. We lost in '20. We lost in '21 in Georgia. And now in '22 we're going to net lose governorships. . . . There's only one person to blame for that, and that's Donald Trump."

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Here's your problem. DeSantis is MAGA. By far the most conservative statewide candidate on the ballot last week. And he was the big winner.

And your argument is further compromised by the track record of the moderate GOP: Romney, McCain, Dole, Bush 41, etc….

Reagan was the conservative, Bush 41 was the moderate to balance the ticket.
Bush 43 was the more conservative option (vs McCain).

Moderates literally suck at winning. Cannot turn blue states red like Perry and Desantis did….and they did it not by moderating but by winning moral arguments.

Moderate Republicans are the types who pound the table harder to defeat Republicans than they ever did to defeat Democrats, actually campaign for Democrats. And then virtue posture as "true" conservatives.

You didn't do that of course. But you did donate to that cause, then blame others for the defeats, as though you had no hand in it.

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No, DeSantis separated from MAGA when MAGA went off the rails. Ask DeSantis if he is MAGA, he will say no, not what Trump has done to it.

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Now you're making stuff up. This is a guy who attacked Disney and stood on a stage and said "Florida is where woke comes to die."

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So, not wanting transgender taught to elementary school students and keeping sexual orientation out of elementary schools is now a MAGA position???? If you don't want your 8 year old being told about sex changes, you are a MAGA? Please, that is ridiculous!

DeSantis is not the 2022 MAGA candidate! He is actually the anti-MAGA guy. Trump hates him and Trumps followers are trying to sabatoge him. DeSantis recognized when MAGA made the crazy left turn and got off. He agrees on the common sense issues, but he is not MAGA. I work in government in Florida, he does not govern or play up the MAGA stuff. Much more corporate, innovation, economic development, and meat/potatoes education. Media may try to paint him as MAGA, but not the way he is governing by a long shot

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You're letting your emotions about Trump affect your analysis. Worse, the things you're saying will harm rather than help Desantis in the primary.

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We disagree. I think you underestimate the amount of Trump fatigue and the desire for normalcy in Nation. DeSantis will play very well as a reasonable, law and order, economic development, education candidate standing next to the ******* Trump throwing grenades. You overestimate the fringe...

RMF5630 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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We need to dump Trump, but if we go back to Romney and Paul Ryan types, I'm not supporting the party at all.

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Agreed.

Spine is a must-have.

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Spine is one thing. Brown Shirt intimidation is another.

You can't govern to spite 50% of the populati0n. You can't intimidate people from running for office with threats. This is not the 2016 Trump and the MAGA hat. For whatever reason, no matter who is right or wrong, MAGA has morphed into a vindictive, threatening group that has no tolerance for anyone that does not think like them. That is NOT a governing party. That is a danger.

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Democrats do that. Literally. Calling half the public a threat to democracy. Using the full range of federal and state level agencies to investigate and prosecute the standard bearer of the opposing party for 6 full years (so far batting .0000)

You need to listen to less MSNBC.

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And the result? Nation is In such good shape. Between Progressives and MAGAs nothing getting done. GOP just had a loser midterm, chance Dems are keeping both Sen and Houe. MAGA only, Trump can save the Nation **** has just about set us up for checkmate. Trump and his cronies energizes Dems. They want him front and center. Independents broke for Dems, not Trump.

By the way, quit with the insult ***** You spout ho mature you are and then go MSNBC insult ***** Grow up.

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Just noting the convergence of your messaging here and the messaging on the TV. The themes are congruent. You're mad we lost and you're just going to blame not just Trump, but the entire MAGA movement. That is exactly what Liz Cheney wants you to do. She did make quite a public spectacle promising to defeat these "weak" GOP candidates rather than helping them across the finish line. Why on earth aren't you furious with her?

There's all kinds of cause/effect problems with your reasoning. Is the nation in bad shape because of the Biden agenda, or because Republicans won't compromise with it? Sure, it always sounds & feels good to be an adult and"get things done," but what things? Compromise for the sake of compromise? No matter how harmful the proposals from the other side are? Do they ever do that with us? I would propose that the nation is in difficulty because of bad Democrat policies across the board, and that a return to the policies of prior Republican Administrations is the answer. It is a fools errand to think we win elections by going along with the very policies that have delivered historically bad econometric data and a very dissatisified electorate.

And, again, what we see is that Dems are going to demonize the GOP in order to turn out the Dem base no matter who is on the ticket. We cannot hide. If we disagree with them, we will be called a threat to democracy. We have to go out and smack them back. We did not do that. We let the party who turned the FBI/DOJ loose on PTA moms....the party who initiated investigations of Elon Musk solely because he bought a messaging platform that has been loyal to the left.....the party of wokeness and cancel culture and cashless bail....etc..... We let those intolerant bigots call us a threat to democracy. That has got to stop. We've got to get on message and define Democrats and their agenda as intolerant, bigoted, normophobic, and down right destructive to a free and prosperous society. That is kinda the Desantis message, you know.

There is much to criticize about Trump.
But you're criticizing of MAGA is Liz Cheney-level bull*****
It will not deliver election victory.
It will only cause an enormous percentage of your voters to give you the middle finger next election and stay home.
Politics is addition, not division.

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You are not getting it. The MAGA of Reagan has been hijacked by Greene, Gaetz, Lake, and Breibert. People are not seeing the MAGA you are describing. They are as unlikeable as the Squad and use the same tactics. These people are out threatening candidates. Trumps is not only threatening, he is actively working to derail some of the GOP's most successful winners. You keep brushing over these facts. These Brownshirt tactics are not endearing MAGA to the electorate. What's next? Rallies against DeSantis by MAGA Republicans?

Maybe the messaging is converging because the election data and the actions of these idiots is showing that Independents and Moderates are not falling in line with these candidates. Actually, they are running away from Trump in the States that matter. The swing States ARE NOT falling in line for Trump. If the GOP continues to follow the MAGA crowds lead, the GOP is pretty much done.

As for Cheney, she is on a personal vendetta and is no better than Trump. She is willing to burn the whole thing down to get Trump. That is not in the best interest of the Nation. Both Cheney and Trump need to go away...

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MSNBC will tell you that MTG is a threat to democracy who has hijacked the GOP. I see in MTG a person who is quite a bit closer to the average American, closer to the political middle than anyone in the Squad. Her greatest offense is that she rabble rouses in a way that Republicans are not supposed to do. Pfft. I think it's humorous, particularly to see how uptight are her critics. Here's what you should tell people who think MTG is the problem - "Lighten up, Francis."

MTG is not the problem here.
Democrats are the problem here.

The problem isn't that the Republicans are talking too far right.
The problem is that Democrats have actually taken the country too far left.

Tell me one time that Democrats have ever been "the problem."
Tell me one time that Democrat centriests have ever turned on their crazies they way you're turning on people who aren't that crazy?

Tell me what it is that makes Ron DeSantis the annointed one, and Kari Lake radioactive? I see in Kari Lake a more telegenic Ron DeSantis, but in other respects pretty much two peas in a pod. Yeah, RDS has already been elected and had a successful term and re-election. But his first one was a squeaker. He was, you know, a founding member of the Freedom Caucus, a right-wing nut, at the time he got elected. And then he showed what governance looks like under right-wing nuts (pretty damned good). If she squeaks by, and has a successful first year in office, she will be one of the brightest lights in the party.

Remember Reagan's 11th Commandment.
We win by demonizing Democrats, not Republicans.

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Republicans have a problem with Independents, not the base. DeSantis carried the base + Independents. Lake (probably) lost Independents.

Nationwide, Republicans outvoted Democrats 36-33 or 49-43 depending on which poll you choose. The Republican problem is they lost Independents 49-47 or by 4%, depending on which poll.
In Arizona, 55%of Independents voted for Kelly compared to 39% for Masters.
In Pennsylvania, 58% voted for Fetterman compared to 38% for Oz.
In Georgia, Warnock won Independents 53-42.
In NH, 54% of them voted for the Democrat.

In Florida, DeSantis won 53% of Independents.

Chris Christie said, "We lost in '18. We lost in '20. We lost in '21 in Georgia. And now in '22 we're going to net lose governorships. . . . There's only one person to blame for that, and that's Donald Trump."

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Here's your problem. DeSantis is MAGA. By far the most conservative statewide candidate on the ballot last week. And he was the big winner.

And your argument is further compromised by the track record of the moderate GOP: Romney, McCain, Dole, Bush 41, etc….

Reagan was the conservative, Bush 41 was the moderate to balance the ticket.
Bush 43 was the more conservative option (vs McCain).

Moderates literally suck at winning. Cannot turn blue states red like Perry and Desantis did….and they did it not by moderating but by winning moral arguments.

Moderate Republicans are the types who pound the table harder to defeat Republicans than they ever did to defeat Democrats, actually campaign for Democrats. And then virtue posture as "true" conservatives.

You didn't do that of course. But you did donate to that cause, then blame others for the defeats, as though you had no hand in it.

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No, DeSantis separated from MAGA when MAGA went off the rails. Ask DeSantis if he is MAGA, he will say no, not what Trump has done to it.

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Now you're making stuff up. This is a guy who attacked Disney and stood on a stage and said "Florida is where woke comes to die."

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So, not wanting transgender taught to elementary school students and keeping sexual orientation out of elementary schools is now a MAGA position???? If you don't want your 8 year old being told about sex changes, you are a MAGA? Please, that is ridiculous!

DeSantis is not the 2022 MAGA candidate! He is actually the anti-MAGA guy. Trump hates him and Trumps followers are trying to sabatoge him. DeSantis recognized when MAGA made the crazy left turn and got off. He agrees on the common sense issues, but he is not MAGA. I work in government in Florida, he does not govern or play up the MAGA stuff. Much more corporate, innovation, economic development, and meat/potatoes education. Media may try to paint him as MAGA, but not the way he is governing by a long shot

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You're letting your emotions about Trump affect your analysis. Worse, the things you're saying will harm rather than help Desantis in the primary.

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We disagree. I think you underestimate the amount of Trump fatigue and the desire for normalcy in Nation. DeSantis will play very well as a reasonable, law and order, economic development, education candidate standing next to the ******* Trump throwing grenades. You overestimate the fringe...

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I see the Trump fatigue. Have cited it. Nothing unusual about it. That's why retread candidates are so rare in American history.

In my conversation Monday w/XDir of that PAC, I mentioned the Tx poll and said it looked like it reflected that the "soft MAGA" all flipped at once and that we likely saw Trump's floor, at least a third of the GOP. He said "funny you say that. I use the "soft MAGA" phrase all the time." He went in to say there is a big piece of the party that likes Trump and is comfortable with him but understands the reservations others have. Then there are the "hard MAGA" that want revenge for the stolen election and are going to punish anyone who tries to stifle them. That is all pretty spot on.

The challenge is to unite all of that into one coalition. It can be done. Both Trump and Desantis understand that and will be working the problem, albeit very differently. Will be fun ti watch it come together.

Trump already lost at at time he had much more support in the party. He can't win with less party support. The voters understand that.

Trumpist MAGA is a grievance vibe that we typically make fun of Liberals about. It's what happens when your platform is built around a personality or emotion and not principles. It became grievance on steroids after the election mess.

Lake, Oz, Walker, Masters all had no political track record, and were personality front people with a giant Trump stamp on them. It's not shocking they failed where others succeeded to win their races.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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whiterock said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Things change depending on who wins.

The 2020 presidential election was rife with allegations of voting machine hacks that were later debunked.

Yet there are real risks that hackers could tunnel into voting equipment and other election infrastructure to try to undermine Tuesday’s vote.https://t.co/kDij1J08eU

— POLITICO (@politico) November 7, 2022

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Geez, stop.with the fraud ***** GOP lost, deal with it. Need better candidates and message that attracts younger voters and Hispanics to GOP. This fraud crap just alienates voters.

If there is proof investigate, prosecute, convict and talk about after you get conviction. Or, it'd more Jan 6th BS.

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I posted this before the outcome because liberal media was saying fraud was possible when they've been saying it's impossible for the past two years.

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Yeah, but it is time to look in the mirror. The fact that this election was close enough for fraud to play a role with Biden in the White House should be a red flag. We are living in the 70's and instead of a wave bringing Reagan in to right the ship, the electorate voted to maintain the status quo with these clowns at the wheel rather than give Trump and his crowd another shot. What does that tell you???

Some on here, they are doubling down into the MAGA/Brietbert line that it is fraud, media-bias and that the American people really do want Trump and his band to save the day. But, if that is the case, why are they attacking winning GOP members? They are actively trying to intimidate, bad-mouth and humiliate GOP winners that are on their side??? That is the actions of someone that is going to save the Party?

Trump and his band are the problem, just as much as Pelosi and the Squad. They are the same on extreme ends of the political spectrum, but at that point a tyrant is a tyrant. Lenin and Hitler didn't operate too far apart, even though they believed 100% different politics.

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…do you know that I predicted GOP would do terrible in midterms and that I'm ready to get past Trump?

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Trump is the Dem's best asset .

Amazing how many conservatives can't accept this even now.

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I am amazed at how many are defending his position in the GOP after last election and his antics this week. He is poison.

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You might want to consider the idea that more than Trump-MAGA being electoral poison… the establishment corporate GOP is electoral poison.

A lot of people want to get past Trumpism and get back to good ole days of "invade the world-invite the world-look out for Wall St." George W. Bush type Republicanism.

Problem is there is no path to national power that way.

Everyone hates it.

Even the dire hard Red State voters that would stick with a Bush-Paul Ryan-Cheney-Romney type GOP would vote red out of loyalty but hate the actual party positions and leadership. And it would almost never take the White House again.

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So, why do we have to like Romney or McCain if we don't like Trump and his MAGA crowd? You are making it an either/or. I disagree with that.

DeSantis's Florida is not McCain/Romney-ish and he is not MAGA like Trump, Greene, Gaetz, Lake and Briebert. He has done a damn good job, pushed back on the stupid stuff, embraced the conservative and has increased business. His one flaw, he may not be "warm" enough, he can come across mean.

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Desantis is not MAGA like Trump. He's MAGA better than Trump.

THAT'S his core appeal. He's Trump without the warts

And you watch. The media is going to start laying the wood to him. The will call him Trump 2.0.

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Start? DeSantis already is A THREAT TO DEMOCRAT!?!

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"Glass Jaw"
"more dangerous"
etc.....

It's already started.

The moderate GOP'er thinks we can have a high, wide, handsome candidate that will be immune to all such critique. What sophomorically unrealistic thinking. It does not matter how nice or proper or gentlemanly a candidate can be. If he/she is running against a Democrat, he/she will be a threat to democracy. Democrats live in a world where they are the good guys and anyone who disagrees with them is a proto-fascist. Worst of all, they genuinely believe it.

We have to do a better job of pointing out that the true threat to democracy is the Democrat Party. Desantis is onto that them when he talks about liberty and freedom. Trump addresses it differently, and obliquely - "drain the swamp" "these people are crooks/incompetent/stupid." Both are on the relevant points to make. Primary voters are going to decide which messaging will be more effective.

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It's nothing new. It does not matter what a Republican believes, says, or does, the Democrats and regime media constantly play to emotional hysterics and their base.

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I don't know how familiar you are with conservatives and conservative media, but oddly enough they do the same thing.

Every Republican should say thank you to @ScottPresler for his tireless efforts registering new voters this cycle. He takes the hits and uses it all as fuel for extra motivation to work even harder the next day. He’s not doing it for fame or glory. It’s all about love of country.

— Lee Zeldin (@leezeldin) November 16, 2022

As I said, its basically a crime that national GOP hasnt contacted Scott