Recession

209,556 Views | 2403 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by Jack Bauer
Oldbear83
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FLBear5630 said:

Oldbear83 said:

BUDOS said:

"People who constantly argue seek control and power over others. You cannot reason with them, so it' s better to withdraw from an argument than try to prove them wrong." ~Nicola Davies

"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be or to be indistinguishable from self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."

Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon

Curious, why would someone come to a political message board and then be upset with people arguing politics?

Couldn't say why someone would be upset with someone simply arguing politics (you'd need to ask those people directly).

My personal dislike is someone who imports propaganda as fact, or who seem to live in a perpetual hatred of a particular person well beyond reasonable boundaries (e.g, people who treat possible events or outcomes which have not actually happened as actual events or outcomes because they want to attack someone, or who ignore facts because they would much rather embrace malicious fictions).

I detest dishonesty. Others make a hobby of it.

whiterock
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boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.
FLBear5630
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whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.
whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.

FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...
whiterock
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FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.
Typical leftist nonsense. Raise costs of drilling. Limit drilling. Blame oil companies for profiteering. Extol the virtues of Net Zero and Renewables. Instead of drilling into massive reserves of oil to satisfy demand.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.
There you go with the class warfare argument again - citing CEO pay as the obstacle to a better future. We are moving forward into the future. We're building data centers. And I heard with my own two ears a CEO tell his staff "doesn't matter what it costs....build it and we will roll the costs into the price." That's not a CEO engaging in MBA jargon about ratios and management regimes. That's a business leader recognizing a macroeconomic moment - unlimited demand for a product in very limited supply. The only way to meet the demand is to create the supply. The cost of creating that supply IS the cost it takes to meet demand. It was a very elegant moment.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...
Basic macro concepts like supply & demand will never go out of style.

You apparently never had an economics class?
D. C. Bear
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FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...


Prognosticators in the early 1900s looking forward to the 1950s predicted mass starvation as food supplies ran out.

You would be amazed at what innovation can accomplish.
FLBear5630
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D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...


Prognosticators in the early 1900s looking forward to the 1950s predicted mass starvation as food supplies ran out.

You would be amazed at what innovation can accomplish.

Ah! The real crux of the matter - innovation.

So, let's talk about that. How is drill baby drill spurring innovation in a world that every indicator shows that the fatal flaw to all this new tech is energy. You saying that there is enough oil to supply the world for the next 100 years with fossil fuels? That it is a good bet to rely on that. Because that is what our current policies and actions are indicating. Deregulation, Venezuela, and Iran are all about oil.

Also, did you know that 2055 is in our current planning horizon for infrastructure? You are acting like 2065 is a lifetime away. In order to build out the electric grid, we plan 30-40 years. For P3's (public private partnerships) we are doing 75 year contracts, which puts us at 2100.

Finally, 1900 was a blank slate. As tech came on, virgin land for the most part, we were able to put the first layer. Ever see growth rates for Greenfield projects vs Brownfield? Greenfield are much higher as there is nothing there. We can grow where and how we want. Brownfield is low, because it is already occupied and the cost and time go up for development. We are in a Brownfield situation, you need MORE lead time not less. The innovation miracle you talked about was in a Greenfiedl situation, we are not there anymore. ( I think this is the biggest point the current cheerleaders and administration is missing. We are not at the point you are comparing us. That time has gone. Look at Asia, that is the new model)

I know this is more than this Board likes to discuss. I will get some 12th grade macro economic lesson rather than looking at an aerial (showing what needs to be rebuild and revised to the new). There is a reason Texas is growing, there is space. Until there isn't.
D. C. Bear
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FLBear5630 said:

D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...


Prognosticators in the early 1900s looking forward to the 1950s predicted mass starvation as food supplies ran out.

You would be amazed at what innovation can accomplish.

Ah! The real crux of the matter - innovation.

So, let's talk about that. How is drill baby drill spurring innovation in a world that every indicator shows that the fatal flaw to all this new tech is energy. You saying that there is enough oil to supply the world for the next 100 years with fossil fuels? That it is a good bet to rely on that. Because that is what our current policies and actions are indicating. Deregulation, Venezuela, and Iran are all about oil.

Also, did you know that 2055 is in our current planning horizon for infrastructure? You are acting like 2065 is a lifetime away. In order to build out the electric grid, we plan 30-40 years. For P3's (public private partnerships) we are doing 75 year contracts, which puts us at 2100.

Finally, 1900 was a blank slate. As tech came on, virgin land for the most part, we were able to put the first layer. Ever see growth rates for Greenfield projects vs Brownfield? Greenfield are much higher as there is nothing there. We can grow where and how we want. Brownfield is low, because it is already occupied and the cost and time go up for development. We are in a Brownfield situation, you need MORE lead time not less. The innovation miracle you talked about was in a Greenfiedl situation, we are not there anymore. ( I think this is the biggest point the current cheerleaders and administration is missing. We are not at the point you are comparing us. That time has gone. Look at Asia, that is the new model)

I know this is more than this Board likes to discuss. I will get some 12th grade macro economic lesson rather than looking at an aerial (showing what needs to be rebuild and revised to the new). There is a reason Texas is growing, there is space. Until there isn't.



Drill, baby drill, is good policy for the United States and the world. Innovation does not depend on making oil more expensive. Energy, as cheap as we can reasonably get it, drives economic growth. The world needs that.

The are various paths, some undiscovered as of now, to cheap, clean energy. We should promote the research needed to make that happen, not create costly economic incentives in an attempt to drive under developed technologies into mainstream use.

If you are very concerned about pollution and environmental impact, the best way to get clean energy is with nuclear power. It does cost more, but the prices could come down fairly easily.

Trying to electrify transportation is not viable yet. Battery or other power sources are not there. Maybe someday.

Newer technology may eventually make the power grid obsolete in the same way that POTS has declined in telecommunication.
Doc Holliday
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D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...


Prognosticators in the early 1900s looking forward to the 1950s predicted mass starvation as food supplies ran out.

You would be amazed at what innovation can accomplish.

Ah! The real crux of the matter - innovation.

So, let's talk about that. How is drill baby drill spurring innovation in a world that every indicator shows that the fatal flaw to all this new tech is energy. You saying that there is enough oil to supply the world for the next 100 years with fossil fuels? That it is a good bet to rely on that. Because that is what our current policies and actions are indicating. Deregulation, Venezuela, and Iran are all about oil.

Also, did you know that 2055 is in our current planning horizon for infrastructure? You are acting like 2065 is a lifetime away. In order to build out the electric grid, we plan 30-40 years. For P3's (public private partnerships) we are doing 75 year contracts, which puts us at 2100.

Finally, 1900 was a blank slate. As tech came on, virgin land for the most part, we were able to put the first layer. Ever see growth rates for Greenfield projects vs Brownfield? Greenfield are much higher as there is nothing there. We can grow where and how we want. Brownfield is low, because it is already occupied and the cost and time go up for development. We are in a Brownfield situation, you need MORE lead time not less. The innovation miracle you talked about was in a Greenfiedl situation, we are not there anymore. ( I think this is the biggest point the current cheerleaders and administration is missing. We are not at the point you are comparing us. That time has gone. Look at Asia, that is the new model)

I know this is more than this Board likes to discuss. I will get some 12th grade macro economic lesson rather than looking at an aerial (showing what needs to be rebuild and revised to the new). There is a reason Texas is growing, there is space. Until there isn't.



Drill, baby drill, is good policy for the United States and the world. Innovation does not depend on making oil more expensive. Energy, as cheap as we can reasonably get it, drives economic growth. The world needs that.

The are various paths, some undiscovered as of now, to cheap, clean energy. We should promote the research needed to make that happen, not create costly economic incentives in an attempt to drive under developed technologies into mainstream use.

If you are very concerned about pollution and environmental impact, the best way to get clean energy is with nuclear power. It does cost more, but the prices could come down fairly easily.

Trying to electrify transportation is not viable yet. Battery or other power sources are not there. Maybe someday.

Newer technology may eventually make the power grid obsolete in the same way that POTS has declined in telecommunication.

As someone who works in oil and gas...drill baby drill is terrible for us.

If we're under $3 natural gas and oil is under $60, its not great for most of us. We will experience a lot of negative cash flow.

I prefer $6 Nat gas and about $85 oil.
D. C. Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...


Prognosticators in the early 1900s looking forward to the 1950s predicted mass starvation as food supplies ran out.

You would be amazed at what innovation can accomplish.

Ah! The real crux of the matter - innovation.

So, let's talk about that. How is drill baby drill spurring innovation in a world that every indicator shows that the fatal flaw to all this new tech is energy. You saying that there is enough oil to supply the world for the next 100 years with fossil fuels? That it is a good bet to rely on that. Because that is what our current policies and actions are indicating. Deregulation, Venezuela, and Iran are all about oil.

Also, did you know that 2055 is in our current planning horizon for infrastructure? You are acting like 2065 is a lifetime away. In order to build out the electric grid, we plan 30-40 years. For P3's (public private partnerships) we are doing 75 year contracts, which puts us at 2100.

Finally, 1900 was a blank slate. As tech came on, virgin land for the most part, we were able to put the first layer. Ever see growth rates for Greenfield projects vs Brownfield? Greenfield are much higher as there is nothing there. We can grow where and how we want. Brownfield is low, because it is already occupied and the cost and time go up for development. We are in a Brownfield situation, you need MORE lead time not less. The innovation miracle you talked about was in a Greenfiedl situation, we are not there anymore. ( I think this is the biggest point the current cheerleaders and administration is missing. We are not at the point you are comparing us. That time has gone. Look at Asia, that is the new model)

I know this is more than this Board likes to discuss. I will get some 12th grade macro economic lesson rather than looking at an aerial (showing what needs to be rebuild and revised to the new). There is a reason Texas is growing, there is space. Until there isn't.



Drill, baby drill, is good policy for the United States and the world. Innovation does not depend on making oil more expensive. Energy, as cheap as we can reasonably get it, drives economic growth. The world needs that.

The are various paths, some undiscovered as of now, to cheap, clean energy. We should promote the research needed to make that happen, not create costly economic incentives in an attempt to drive under developed technologies into mainstream use.

If you are very concerned about pollution and environmental impact, the best way to get clean energy is with nuclear power. It does cost more, but the prices could come down fairly easily.

Trying to electrify transportation is not viable yet. Battery or other power sources are not there. Maybe someday.

Newer technology may eventually make the power grid obsolete in the same way that POTS has declined in telecommunication.

As someone who works in oil and gas...drill baby drill is terrible for us.

If we're under $3 natural gas and oil is under $60, its not great for most of us. We will experience a lot of negative cash flow.

I prefer $6 Nat gas and about $85 oil.


Fair enough. I will go with do not design policy to artificially limit the ability of producers to produce.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...


Prognosticators in the early 1900s looking forward to the 1950s predicted mass starvation as food supplies ran out.

You would be amazed at what innovation can accomplish.

Ah! The real crux of the matter - innovation.

So, let's talk about that. How is drill baby drill spurring innovation in a world that every indicator shows that the fatal flaw to all this new tech is energy. You saying that there is enough oil to supply the world for the next 100 years with fossil fuels? That it is a good bet to rely on that. Because that is what our current policies and actions are indicating. Deregulation, Venezuela, and Iran are all about oil.

Also, did you know that 2055 is in our current planning horizon for infrastructure? You are acting like 2065 is a lifetime away. In order to build out the electric grid, we plan 30-40 years. For P3's (public private partnerships) we are doing 75 year contracts, which puts us at 2100.

Finally, 1900 was a blank slate. As tech came on, virgin land for the most part, we were able to put the first layer. Ever see growth rates for Greenfield projects vs Brownfield? Greenfield are much higher as there is nothing there. We can grow where and how we want. Brownfield is low, because it is already occupied and the cost and time go up for development. We are in a Brownfield situation, you need MORE lead time not less. The innovation miracle you talked about was in a Greenfiedl situation, we are not there anymore. ( I think this is the biggest point the current cheerleaders and administration is missing. We are not at the point you are comparing us. That time has gone. Look at Asia, that is the new model)

I know this is more than this Board likes to discuss. I will get some 12th grade macro economic lesson rather than looking at an aerial (showing what needs to be rebuild and revised to the new). There is a reason Texas is growing, there is space. Until there isn't.



Drill, baby drill, is good policy for the United States and the world. Innovation does not depend on making oil more expensive. Energy, as cheap as we can reasonably get it, drives economic growth. The world needs that.

The are various paths, some undiscovered as of now, to cheap, clean energy. We should promote the research needed to make that happen, not create costly economic incentives in an attempt to drive under developed technologies into mainstream use.

If you are very concerned about pollution and environmental impact, the best way to get clean energy is with nuclear power. It does cost more, but the prices could come down fairly easily.

Trying to electrify transportation is not viable yet. Battery or other power sources are not there. Maybe someday.

Newer technology may eventually make the power grid obsolete in the same way that POTS has declined in telecommunication.

I agree on nuclear and even fusion which is making headway. But to your point earlier, necessity spurs innovation. Drill baby drill is pushing the innovation need back. I am seeing R&D being cut because we are good and the current leadership teams are being rewarded on profitability now, not 10 or 20 years from. Same with Board member and dividend checks. Biden was a f-up in a lot of ways, but under his mismanagement R&D was higher.

In my opinion, the current policies are going to set us behind in energy technology development, we may be the best at drilling but we have an issue in deploying. Other Nations are taking advantage, especially look to BRIC.

I was against all Green New Deal, but just as much against drill baby drill. We need more of a mix.
Jack Bauer
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Alexa, show me what "backhanded complement" means..

J.R.
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D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

D. C. Bear said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

boognish_bear said:



correct.

Economics 101:
-when government inflates the currency via deficit spending, prices plateau jump and stay there.
-when imbalances in supply and demand drive prices up, imbalances in supply and demand drive prices down.

Just look at oil prices the last 60 days. 20-30% swings due to perceptions of looming supply/demand imbalances. That is not inflation. That is a market responding to events to balance supply and demand. It's a completely different dynamic than the government arbitrarily increasing the supply of money without any corresponding increase in the production of goods.


And when that situation becomes the new normal, as Moody's is reporting oil prices will be? You guys getting into EVs? All of a sudden, Tesla is very happy.

Doomscrolling again?

You want lower oil prices, then drill baby drill and get a stable government in place in Iran.



And you still copying your Freshman Econ books?


I don't want the infatuation on trying to recreate some mythic American Golden Age that only came about because of the unique circumstances on WW2. Drilling oil until dry is not the path forward, energy demand is too high for that. We need to be thinking about 2065, not 1965.

You guys are stuck in a 20th century CEO bonus driven model that is not rewarding moving toward 2065, but recreating 1965. Until the reward structure matches the goal of moving into the future, we are stuck in this cycle. That is not in your economic books, you still think that increasing efficiency by 1/4% is the way forward rather than increasing revenue by 10% which requires risk.

I sit in the meetings with Moody's, Contractors, and Corporations reducing risk is the mantra, but you don't break into new ground by relying on Macroeconomic books from 1970 and constantly reducing risk. All you end up with is more of the same with a stressed out overworked staff...


Prognosticators in the early 1900s looking forward to the 1950s predicted mass starvation as food supplies ran out.

You would be amazed at what innovation can accomplish.

Ah! The real crux of the matter - innovation.

So, let's talk about that. How is drill baby drill spurring innovation in a world that every indicator shows that the fatal flaw to all this new tech is energy. You saying that there is enough oil to supply the world for the next 100 years with fossil fuels? That it is a good bet to rely on that. Because that is what our current policies and actions are indicating. Deregulation, Venezuela, and Iran are all about oil.

Also, did you know that 2055 is in our current planning horizon for infrastructure? You are acting like 2065 is a lifetime away. In order to build out the electric grid, we plan 30-40 years. For P3's (public private partnerships) we are doing 75 year contracts, which puts us at 2100.

Finally, 1900 was a blank slate. As tech came on, virgin land for the most part, we were able to put the first layer. Ever see growth rates for Greenfield projects vs Brownfield? Greenfield are much higher as there is nothing there. We can grow where and how we want. Brownfield is low, because it is already occupied and the cost and time go up for development. We are in a Brownfield situation, you need MORE lead time not less. The innovation miracle you talked about was in a Greenfiedl situation, we are not there anymore. ( I think this is the biggest point the current cheerleaders and administration is missing. We are not at the point you are comparing us. That time has gone. Look at Asia, that is the new model)

I know this is more than this Board likes to discuss. I will get some 12th grade macro economic lesson rather than looking at an aerial (showing what needs to be rebuild and revised to the new). There is a reason Texas is growing, there is space. Until there isn't.



Drill, baby drill, is good policy for the United States and the world. Innovation does not depend on making oil more expensive. Energy, as cheap as we can reasonably get it, drives economic growth. The world needs that.

The are various paths, some undiscovered as of now, to cheap, clean energy. We should promote the research needed to make that happen, not create costly economic incentives in an attempt to drive under developed technologies into mainstream use.

If you are very concerned about pollution and environmental impact, the best way to get clean energy is with nuclear power. It does cost more, but the prices could come down fairly easily.

Trying to electrify transportation is not viable yet. Battery or other power sources are not there. Maybe someday.

Newer technology may eventually make the power grid obsolete in the same way that POTS has declined in telecommunication.

I would argue that drill baby drill is just a stupid quip by someone who has no clue. There ain't a 1 CEO of a major who wants drill baby drill, but they have been bootlickers. $100 plus isn't good for anyone. $70 is about optimum . Easy on consumers, Oil Cos can be net profitable. If it gets to $50 or below, mass layoffs in the patch. All throughout the supply chain. I personally don't like making huge profits for this war or and loss of life. Viva la Donnie
Waco1947
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Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.
Waco1947
boognish_bear
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BUDOS
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Okay I am not as educated on this topic as some of you and I am new to the forum. After reading the last few posts it appears that we are definitely going to run out of fossil fuels in about a hundred years or so. From what I gather we continue to fail miserably at realizing the importance of alternative energy, especially wind and solar which would much to resolve the issue.
It would seem that we keep kicking such obvious solutions to our problems down the road, like the national debt. We seem to lack the will and courage to solve our own problems. You know the home of the brave.

FLBear5630
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BUDOS said:

Okay I am not as educated on this topic as some of you and I am new to the forum. After reading the last few posts it appears that we are definitely going to run out of fossil fuels in about a hundred years or so. From what I gather we continue to fail miserably at realizing the importance of alternative energy, especially wind and solar which would much to resolve the issue.
It would seem that we keep kicking such obvious solutions to our problems down the road, like the national debt. We seem to lack the will and courage to solve our own problems. You know the home of the brave.




There are a lot of solutions, not just wind. It will be a combination. T
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

Nuclear energy turns out to be one of the most efficient ,clean, and efficient forms of energy. Unfortunately, the Lib tree huggers/ environmentalists all but killed it in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I do believe nuclear power is the future of clean energy. Much moreso than wind and solar.
Call it a tax, the people are outraged! Call it a tariff, the people get out their checkbooks and wave their American flags!!!
whiterock
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Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

FANTASTIC! We need more of them!!
FLBear5630
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

Nuclear energy turns out to be one of the most efficient ,clean, and efficient forms of energy. Unfortunately, the Lib tree huggers/ environmentalists all but killed it in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I do believe nuclear power is the future of clean energy. Much moreso than wind and solar.

Agree.

I have long believed that we need a combination of all. Energy field agrees, they are expanding. Florida Power invests in Wind Farms in the Plains and sells the power. They also operate LNG, Coal and other types of energy. We need more options, not less. Nuclear, invest in Fusion, geo, tidal, kinetic, as well as oil
Oldbear83
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FLBear5630 said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

Nuclear energy turns out to be one of the most efficient ,clean, and efficient forms of energy. Unfortunately, the Lib tree huggers/ environmentalists all but killed it in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I do believe nuclear power is the future of clean energy. Much moreso than wind and solar.

Agree.

I have long believed that we need a combination of all. Energy field agrees, they are expanding. Florida Power invests in Wind Farms in the Plains and sells the power. They also operate LNG, Coal and other types of energy. We need more options, not less. Nuclear, invest in Fusion, geo, tidal, kinetic, as well as oil

I worked for Reliant Energy for 9 years, and every utility has been diverse for decades. Wind and solar are very cost efficient if you build properly, but are undependable in weather conditions, as we saw in 2021. So you also need a core source that provides completely dependable power, which right now is either nuclear or gas.

The problem - really the only one - with nuclear, is the heavy regulation requirements imposed on both construction and operation. Not saying you ever take safety lightly, but everything from the materials used to the tools you may used are regulated, and sometimes there's not much logic in the additional restrictions.
FLBear5630
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Oldbear83 said:

FLBear5630 said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

Nuclear energy turns out to be one of the most efficient ,clean, and efficient forms of energy. Unfortunately, the Lib tree huggers/ environmentalists all but killed it in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I do believe nuclear power is the future of clean energy. Much moreso than wind and solar.

Agree.

I have long believed that we need a combination of all. Energy field agrees, they are expanding. Florida Power invests in Wind Farms in the Plains and sells the power. They also operate LNG, Coal and other types of energy. We need more options, not less. Nuclear, invest in Fusion, geo, tidal, kinetic, as well as oil

I worked for Reliant Energy for 9 years, and every utility has been diverse for decades. Wind and solar are very cost efficient if you build properly, but are undependable in weather conditions, as we saw in 2021. So you also need a core source that provides completely dependable power, which right now is either nuclear or gas.

The problem - really the only one - with nuclear, is the heavy regulation requirements imposed on both construction and operation. Not saying you ever take safety lightly, but everything from the materials used to the tools you may used are regulated, and sometimes there's not much logic in the additional restrictions.

Good point. They regulated Nuclear out of use.
Oldbear83
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FLBear5630 said:

Oldbear83 said:

FLBear5630 said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

Nuclear energy turns out to be one of the most efficient ,clean, and efficient forms of energy. Unfortunately, the Lib tree huggers/ environmentalists all but killed it in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I do believe nuclear power is the future of clean energy. Much moreso than wind and solar.

Agree.

I have long believed that we need a combination of all. Energy field agrees, they are expanding. Florida Power invests in Wind Farms in the Plains and sells the power. They also operate LNG, Coal and other types of energy. We need more options, not less. Nuclear, invest in Fusion, geo, tidal, kinetic, as well as oil

I worked for Reliant Energy for 9 years, and every utility has been diverse for decades. Wind and solar are very cost efficient if you build properly, but are undependable in weather conditions, as we saw in 2021. So you also need a core source that provides completely dependable power, which right now is either nuclear or gas.

The problem - really the only one - with nuclear, is the heavy regulation requirements imposed on both construction and operation. Not saying you ever take safety lightly, but everything from the materials used to the tools you may used are regulated, and sometimes there's not much logic in the additional restrictions.

Good point. They regulated Nuclear out of use.

We once had a part rejected for a plant, then the same part accepted when we put a different color-coded sticker on it.

That kind of bureaucracy.
FLBear5630
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Not to get you going, but you can't see how a part with no color that needs it or the wrong color could be a problem? I get the regs thing, but sometimes they are needed.
Oldbear83
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FLBear5630 said:

Not to get you going, but you can't see how a part with no color that needs it or the wrong color could be a problem? I get the regs thing, but sometimes they are needed.


I get that. It's that they could have said 'correct the tag', but just rejected it wo explanation and we had to start over.
FLBear5630
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Oldbear83 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Not to get you going, but you can't see how a part with no color that needs it or the wrong color could be a problem? I get the regs thing, but sometimes they are needed.


I get that. It's that they could have said 'correct the tag', but just rejected it wo explanation and we had to start over.


True. I see that too, usually with invoices just outright rejection rather than a phone call to correct quickly.
Oldbear83
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FLBear5630 said:

Oldbear83 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Not to get you going, but you can't see how a part with no color that needs it or the wrong color could be a problem? I get the regs thing, but sometimes they are needed.


I get that. It's that they could have said 'correct the tag', but just rejected it wo explanation and we had to start over.


True. I see that too, usually with invoices just outright rejection rather than a phone call to correct quickly.

Which reminds me: Why are so many people unwilling to use the phone?

I settled lots of problems over the years in a couple minutes by phone.
FLBear5630
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I agree.
whiterock
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FLBear5630 said:

Oldbear83 said:

FLBear5630 said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

Nuclear energy turns out to be one of the most efficient ,clean, and efficient forms of energy. Unfortunately, the Lib tree huggers/ environmentalists all but killed it in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I do believe nuclear power is the future of clean energy. Much moreso than wind and solar.

Agree.

I have long believed that we need a combination of all. Energy field agrees, they are expanding. Florida Power invests in Wind Farms in the Plains and sells the power. They also operate LNG, Coal and other types of energy. We need more options, not less. Nuclear, invest in Fusion, geo, tidal, kinetic, as well as oil

I worked for Reliant Energy for 9 years, and every utility has been diverse for decades. Wind and solar are very cost efficient if you build properly, but are undependable in weather conditions, as we saw in 2021. So you also need a core source that provides completely dependable power, which right now is either nuclear or gas.

The problem - really the only one - with nuclear, is the heavy regulation requirements imposed on both construction and operation. Not saying you ever take safety lightly, but everything from the materials used to the tools you may used are regulated, and sometimes there's not much logic in the additional restrictions.

Good point. They regulated Nuclear out of use.

then they regulated coal out of use.
FLBear5630
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whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

Oldbear83 said:

FLBear5630 said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

Nuclear energy turns out to be one of the most efficient ,clean, and efficient forms of energy. Unfortunately, the Lib tree huggers/ environmentalists all but killed it in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I do believe nuclear power is the future of clean energy. Much moreso than wind and solar.

Agree.

I have long believed that we need a combination of all. Energy field agrees, they are expanding. Florida Power invests in Wind Farms in the Plains and sells the power. They also operate LNG, Coal and other types of energy. We need more options, not less. Nuclear, invest in Fusion, geo, tidal, kinetic, as well as oil

I worked for Reliant Energy for 9 years, and every utility has been diverse for decades. Wind and solar are very cost efficient if you build properly, but are undependable in weather conditions, as we saw in 2021. So you also need a core source that provides completely dependable power, which right now is either nuclear or gas.

The problem - really the only one - with nuclear, is the heavy regulation requirements imposed on both construction and operation. Not saying you ever take safety lightly, but everything from the materials used to the tools you may used are regulated, and sometimes there's not much logic in the additional restrictions.

Good point. They regulated Nuclear out of use.

then they regulated coal out of use.

True, but doesn't this fit into your buggy whip theory? Or, is that only for items you don't like or have an interest in?
Waco1947
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BUDOS said:

Okay I am not as educated on this topic as some of you and I am new to the forum. After reading the last few posts it appears that we are definitely going to run out of fossil fuels in about a hundred years or so. From what I gather we continue to fail miserably at realizing the importance of alternative energy, especially wind and solar which would much to resolve the issue.
It would seem that we keep kicking such obvious solutions to our problems down the road, like the national debt. We seem to lack the will and courage to solve our own problems. You know the home of the brave.



I invest in Engyie, and my electric company is Green Mountain. Both are the future
Waco1947
whiterock
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FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

Oldbear83 said:

FLBear5630 said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Waco1947 said:

Although oil may be with this for 100 years so we drill a baby drill now, all that oil is going into Gas burning cars. And power plants.

Nuclear energy turns out to be one of the most efficient ,clean, and efficient forms of energy. Unfortunately, the Lib tree huggers/ environmentalists all but killed it in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I do believe nuclear power is the future of clean energy. Much moreso than wind and solar.

Agree.

I have long believed that we need a combination of all. Energy field agrees, they are expanding. Florida Power invests in Wind Farms in the Plains and sells the power. They also operate LNG, Coal and other types of energy. We need more options, not less. Nuclear, invest in Fusion, geo, tidal, kinetic, as well as oil

I worked for Reliant Energy for 9 years, and every utility has been diverse for decades. Wind and solar are very cost efficient if you build properly, but are undependable in weather conditions, as we saw in 2021. So you also need a core source that provides completely dependable power, which right now is either nuclear or gas.

The problem - really the only one - with nuclear, is the heavy regulation requirements imposed on both construction and operation. Not saying you ever take safety lightly, but everything from the materials used to the tools you may used are regulated, and sometimes there's not much logic in the additional restrictions.

Good point. They regulated Nuclear out of use.

then they regulated coal out of use.

True, but doesn't this fit into your buggy whip theory? Or, is that only for items you don't like or have an interest in?

It's not a theory. It's a well-observed economic dynamic.

Wind & solar were little more than regulatory avoidance schemes - energy companies who invested enough in wind/solar could offset against older, less clean generation in their portfolio. There are very few areas of the country where wind/solar actually pencil out on their own.

More to the point, wind/solar are as a matter of physics incapable of the energy intensity necessary to run industry. You cannot run an aluminum foundry on wind/solar. You have to burn something. Wind/solar are great for trickle charging or low-intensity loads. And that's about it. I've probably related this here previously, but I spent a couple of days several years ago with a very senior BOA exec. We were driving thru the largest wind farm in the country between Big Spring and Abilene. He had financed a bunch of it and explained the particulars. Driving back that afternoon, the windmills were all totally still. I told him "now, I'm just a small businessman with an MBA, but I don't understand the model of borrowing money to buy equipment and then not let that equipment run.....ya hafta actually spin the turbines to generate revenue to pay off the note on the turbans, right?" He then explained the regulatory avoidance scheme. The energy companies didn't count on the windmills for core load, just surge capacity. Fire them up when demand increases, feather them back when it fades. The regulatory avoidance covers the note. He added "it's a lot easier and cheaper to shut down a few thousand acres of windmills than it is a 1gig gas turbine."

We've gone thru several decades of increasingly irresponsible federal energy policy. Now the bill has come due. We need to reindustrialize across the board, from metal smelting to data centers, and we do not have the energy generation we need to get there. So it will have to be built. And the data centers are going to pay for it. I'm looking at (as in talking directly to corporate CFO and CEO level) at least 7gig of new power production coming on line (approx 1gig of it renewables). One of the companies wants to triple the size of their current DC (now launching phase 1). If successful, that 7gig number could go as high 11gig. and the renewables are only being used to charge batteries for backup power for a small DC.

Or it might not happen here and end up going elsewhere. But it will happen. Just hope it happens here. Got lots of streets & pipes to fix.....

FLBear5630
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We do agree. 8 wind turbines can power a small town on the Plains. That is in an area with a 13 mph avg wind speed. But you need storage for the power, as it is not an on demand asset. Consistent with surge use.

Florida P&L runs turbines in the Plains sells the power to a broker and it is used in Denver. The cash goes to FL to power gas because we do not have the wind to do it. It is a little piece of a big puzzle. It will never be stand alone. Just like oil and LNG will not go away. i have no issue exploring alt forms but not as the answer like the green new deal. it will be a spot treatment.
Oldbear83
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FLBear5630 said:

We do agree. 8 wind turbines can power a small town on the Plains. That is in an area with a 13 mph avg wind speed. But you need storage for the power, as it is not an on demand asset. Consistent with surge use.

Florida P&L runs turbines in the Plains sells the power to a broker and it is used in Denver. The cash goes to FL to power gas because we do not have the wind to do it. It is a little piece of a big puzzle. It will never be stand alone. Just like oil and LNG will not go away. i have no issue exploring alt forms but not as the answer like the green new deal. it will be a spot treatment.

For me, it starts with noticing who is making the promises.

Marketing guys and 'founders' will lie out their rear end. Put engineers out there who can explain how it works and answer questions, you got something worth discussing.
 
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