Putin's biggest problem....is Putin .bear2be2 said:Doc Holliday said:
Most Americans on both sides of the aisle are against invading/bombing foreign nations for any offensive strategic purpose.
This is just more equivocation. You're giving cover to a maniacal Russian dictator.
Yep.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Why do you think both sides-ism excuses Putin/Russia's actions? I'm not sure how you've made that connection.bear2be2 said:Yep.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Both Bush and Obama have been called war criminals by their fellow Americans, which is almost unprecedented in United States history. LBJ is about the only other president I can think of who received similar treatment.
I think it's really disingenuous to say that Americans have been silent about our own country's offenses. I would argue Americans have never held a more critical and less blindly patriotic view of their own country than they do currently, and I think you can draw a direct line to our failed and largely unjustified wars in the Middle East as a major contributing factor for that.
But it's perfectly reasonable and intellectually consistent to acknowledge our own aggression without using both sides-ism to, in effect, excuse what Putin and Russia are doing now.
Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Because it serves, quite intentionally, to obfuscate/deflect attention from the matter at hand, which is Russia's unprovoked and unjustifiable attack of Ukraine.Doc Holliday said:Why do you think both sides-ism excuses Putin/Russia's actions? I'm not sure how you've made that connection.bear2be2 said:Yep.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Both Bush and Obama have been called war criminals by their fellow Americans, which is almost unprecedented in United States history. LBJ is about the only other president I can think of who received similar treatment.
I think it's really disingenuous to say that Americans have been silent about our own country's offenses. I would argue Americans have never held a more critical and less blindly patriotic view of their own country than they do currently, and I think you can draw a direct line to our failed and largely unjustified wars in the Middle East as a major contributing factor for that.
But it's perfectly reasonable and intellectually consistent to acknowledge our own aggression without using both sides-ism to, in effect, excuse what Putin and Russia are doing now.
And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
He loves throwing out pseudo-intellectual, pretentious, and snobby bs takes aimed at Rural people, East Texans, Louisianans, etc.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
I JUST got off a call with President Zelensky’s Chief of staff, Andriy Yermak. Somewhere in the bureaucratic chain between our White House & the Polish Gov., the desperately NEEDED jets are not yet delivered to Ukraine. Public outcry may find the bottleneck. pic.twitter.com/jFfRQTuT1K
— Sean Penn (@SeanPenn) March 9, 2022
The bottleneck is the White House. Let me save you some time.Cobretti said:I JUST got off a call with President Zelensky’s Chief of staff, Andriy Yermak. Somewhere in the bureaucratic chain between our White House & the Polish Gov., the desperately NEEDED jets are not yet delivered to Ukraine. Public outcry may find the bottleneck. pic.twitter.com/jFfRQTuT1K
— Sean Penn (@SeanPenn) March 9, 2022
Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
I wish CH was alive today...so much material for him to be working with in the news.william said:good read thx. and who doesnt miss CH.Redbrickbear said:
Peter Hitchens, a Christian, the author of The Rage Against God and brother of the late Christopher Hitchens, (perhaps best known for his strident atheism) has written an article on the war for the Daily Mail:
One glorious day in Sevastopol 12 years ago, I saw what was coming. That's why I won't join this carnival of hypocrisy
The countries of the West have egged Ukraine on into a confrontation with Russia which has predictably ended in Putin's barbaric invasion.
But while we stand and cheer at a safe distance, the Ukrainians are the ones who get shelled, bombed, besieged and driven from their homes. Is this honourable? Does sentimental praise for their bravery make up for it?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10581335/PETER-HITCHENS-saw-coming-Thats-wont-join-carnival-hypocrisy.html
- KKM
Exactly what I'm seeing too.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
Statement by Pentagon Press Secretary John F. Kirby on Security Assistance to UkraineCobretti said:I JUST got off a call with President Zelensky’s Chief of staff, Andriy Yermak. Somewhere in the bureaucratic chain between our White House & the Polish Gov., the desperately NEEDED jets are not yet delivered to Ukraine. Public outcry may find the bottleneck. pic.twitter.com/jFfRQTuT1K
— Sean Penn (@SeanPenn) March 9, 2022
Sounds like something Ron Paul suggested for Bin Laden.Canada2017 said:It's beyond stupid .Canon said:jupiter said:
Calling all pirates: This US lawmaker wants you to seize Russian vesselsQuote:
On Monday, Rep. Lance Gooden, R-Texas, introduced to Congress a bill which, if passed, would authorize the president of the United States to issue letters of marque and reprisal to seize Russian property.
The eccentric proposal comes amid international furor over Russia's invasion of neighboring Ukraine, which began Feb. 23.
Calling all pirates: This US lawmaker wants you to seize Russian vessels (armytimes.com)
Do you object?
We cannot fly jets to Poland and or Ukraine from an American Base. That gets NATO in it and we have serious war with Russia.Jacques Strap said:Statement by Pentagon Press Secretary John F. Kirby on Security Assistance to UkraineCobretti said:I JUST got off a call with President Zelensky’s Chief of staff, Andriy Yermak. Somewhere in the bureaucratic chain between our White House & the Polish Gov., the desperately NEEDED jets are not yet delivered to Ukraine. Public outcry may find the bottleneck. pic.twitter.com/jFfRQTuT1K
— Sean Penn (@SeanPenn) March 9, 2022
MARCH 8, 2022 We are now in contact with the Polish government following the statement issued today. As we have said, the decision about whether to transfer Polish-owned planes to Ukraine is ultimately one for the Polish government. We will continue consulting with our Allies and partners about our ongoing security assistance to Ukraine, because, in fact, Poland's proposal shows just some of the complexities this issue presents. The prospect of fighter jets "at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America" departing from a U.S./NATO base in Germany to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire NATO alliance. It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it. We will continue to consult with Poland and our other NATO allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland's proposal is a tenable one.
Eh, he's an idiot. Probably no older than 16. He's the same doofus that tried to argue property taxes are $50K on 1.5 million dollar home, despite being showed the math and the proof.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Even more offensive is that the underlying tone is that a man working an honest job at a place like Tractor supply has no right to an opinion or voice about the foreign policy of his government.Rawhide said:Eh, he's an idiot. Probably no older than 16. He's the same doofus that tried to argue property taxes are $50K on 1.5 million dollar home, despite being showed the math and the proof.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
He fancies himself as some sort of wit, but his posts show otherwise.
I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I hope you are right.bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
On this we agree.J.R. said:We cannot fly jets to Poland and or Ukraine from an American Base. That gets NATO in it and we have serious war with Russia.Jacques Strap said:Statement by Pentagon Press Secretary John F. Kirby on Security Assistance to UkraineCobretti said:I JUST got off a call with President Zelensky’s Chief of staff, Andriy Yermak. Somewhere in the bureaucratic chain between our White House & the Polish Gov., the desperately NEEDED jets are not yet delivered to Ukraine. Public outcry may find the bottleneck. pic.twitter.com/jFfRQTuT1K
— Sean Penn (@SeanPenn) March 9, 2022
MARCH 8, 2022 We are now in contact with the Polish government following the statement issued today. As we have said, the decision about whether to transfer Polish-owned planes to Ukraine is ultimately one for the Polish government. We will continue consulting with our Allies and partners about our ongoing security assistance to Ukraine, because, in fact, Poland's proposal shows just some of the complexities this issue presents. The prospect of fighter jets "at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America" departing from a U.S./NATO base in Germany to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire NATO alliance. It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it. We will continue to consult with Poland and our other NATO allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland's proposal is a tenable one.
Redbrickbear said:Even more offensive is that the underlying tone is that a man working an honest job at a place like Tractor supply has no right to an opinion or voice about the foreign policy of his government.Rawhide said:Eh, he's an idiot. Probably no older than 16. He's the same doofus that tried to argue property taxes are $50K on 1.5 million dollar home, despite being showed the math and the proof.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
He fancies himself as some sort of wit, but his posts show otherwise.
Pretentious Liberals really seem to hate real democracy.
After doing a little research on the comparisons between what the proposed jets are (Mig-29) and what Russia has (Su-27), I don't see how it would do much good to get in that mix.Jacques Strap said:On this we agree.J.R. said:We cannot fly jets to Poland and or Ukraine from an American Base. That gets NATO in it and we have serious war with Russia.Jacques Strap said:Statement by Pentagon Press Secretary John F. Kirby on Security Assistance to UkraineCobretti said:I JUST got off a call with President Zelensky’s Chief of staff, Andriy Yermak. Somewhere in the bureaucratic chain between our White House & the Polish Gov., the desperately NEEDED jets are not yet delivered to Ukraine. Public outcry may find the bottleneck. pic.twitter.com/jFfRQTuT1K
— Sean Penn (@SeanPenn) March 9, 2022
MARCH 8, 2022 We are now in contact with the Polish government following the statement issued today. As we have said, the decision about whether to transfer Polish-owned planes to Ukraine is ultimately one for the Polish government. We will continue consulting with our Allies and partners about our ongoing security assistance to Ukraine, because, in fact, Poland's proposal shows just some of the complexities this issue presents. The prospect of fighter jets "at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America" departing from a U.S./NATO base in Germany to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire NATO alliance. It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it. We will continue to consult with Poland and our other NATO allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland's proposal is a tenable one.
While they are better than nothing, is that worth the risk of escalating tensions?nein51 said:
Mig-29s were inferior technology in 1983. It's not 1983. But they are a hell of a lot better than nothing.
Also ask any flyboy and they will tell you that equipment is not the most important thing.
Yep......someone within the State Department finally woke up and connected the dots.J.R. said:We cannot fly jets to Poland and or Ukraine from an American Base. That gets NATO in it and we have serious war with Russia.Jacques Strap said:Statement by Pentagon Press Secretary John F. Kirby on Security Assistance to UkraineCobretti said:I JUST got off a call with President Zelensky’s Chief of staff, Andriy Yermak. Somewhere in the bureaucratic chain between our White House & the Polish Gov., the desperately NEEDED jets are not yet delivered to Ukraine. Public outcry may find the bottleneck. pic.twitter.com/jFfRQTuT1K
— Sean Penn (@SeanPenn) March 9, 2022
MARCH 8, 2022 We are now in contact with the Polish government following the statement issued today. As we have said, the decision about whether to transfer Polish-owned planes to Ukraine is ultimately one for the Polish government. We will continue consulting with our Allies and partners about our ongoing security assistance to Ukraine, because, in fact, Poland's proposal shows just some of the complexities this issue presents. The prospect of fighter jets "at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America" departing from a U.S./NATO base in Germany to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire NATO alliance. It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it. We will continue to consult with Poland and our other NATO allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland's proposal is a tenable one.
It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
I don't view the Georgia and Crimea wars as equivalents to a full-scale invasion of Ukraine for a lot of reasons.ATL Bear said:It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
Georgia was the original thwarting of NATO and US visions of security in that region. It's been creeping up with each step ever since. From Crimea to Eastern Ukraine, meddling in Ukrainian independence etc. Smaller versions of the same thing we're facing today.bear2be2 said:I don't view the Georgia and Crimea wars as equivalents to a full-scale invasion of Ukraine for a lot of reasons.ATL Bear said:It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
meh - NATO is a relic. observed mostly in the breach.ATL Bear said:Georgia was the original thwarting of NATO and US visions of security in that region. It's been creeping up with each step ever since. From Crimea to Eastern Ukraine, meddling in Ukrainian independence etc. Smaller versions of the same thing we're facing today.bear2be2 said:I don't view the Georgia and Crimea wars as equivalents to a full-scale invasion of Ukraine for a lot of reasons.ATL Bear said:It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
But reality is we really don't care about Ukraine. It's the next advance that has everyone wondering.
Putin's doing his best to make NATO not a relic.william said:meh - NATO is a relic. observed mostly in the breach.ATL Bear said:Georgia was the original thwarting of NATO and US visions of security in that region. It's been creeping up with each step ever since. From Crimea to Eastern Ukraine, meddling in Ukrainian independence etc. Smaller versions of the same thing we're facing today.bear2be2 said:I don't view the Georgia and Crimea wars as equivalents to a full-scale invasion of Ukraine for a lot of reasons.ATL Bear said:It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
But reality is we really don't care about Ukraine. It's the next advance that has everyone wondering.
we dont need / want ukraine to be in NATO. never did. nor did soviet georgia need to be,
and we dont want russian troops in canada and chinese troops on the rio grande.
just some basic realpolitik.
- KKM
{ sipping coffee }
bear2be2 said:I don't view the Georgia and Crimea wars as equivalents to a full-scale invasion of Ukraine for a lot of reasons.ATL Bear said:It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
the US has been more involved in the Ukraine in the last decades than Russia.ATL Bear said:Putin's doing his best to make NATO not a relic.william said:meh - NATO is a relic. observed mostly in the breach.ATL Bear said:Georgia was the original thwarting of NATO and US visions of security in that region. It's been creeping up with each step ever since. From Crimea to Eastern Ukraine, meddling in Ukrainian independence etc. Smaller versions of the same thing we're facing today.bear2be2 said:I don't view the Georgia and Crimea wars as equivalents to a full-scale invasion of Ukraine for a lot of reasons.ATL Bear said:It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
But reality is we really don't care about Ukraine. It's the next advance that has everyone wondering.
we dont need / want ukraine to be in NATO. never did. nor did soviet georgia need to be,
and we dont want russian troops in canada and chinese troops on the rio grande.
just some basic realpolitik.
- KKM
{ sipping coffee }
While it may be true, their hands are quite a bit bloodier than ours.william said:the US has been more involved in the Ukraine in the last decades than Russia.ATL Bear said:Putin's doing his best to make NATO not a relic.william said:meh - NATO is a relic. observed mostly in the breach.ATL Bear said:Georgia was the original thwarting of NATO and US visions of security in that region. It's been creeping up with each step ever since. From Crimea to Eastern Ukraine, meddling in Ukrainian independence etc. Smaller versions of the same thing we're facing today.bear2be2 said:I don't view the Georgia and Crimea wars as equivalents to a full-scale invasion of Ukraine for a lot of reasons.ATL Bear said:It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
But reality is we really don't care about Ukraine. It's the next advance that has everyone wondering.
we dont need / want ukraine to be in NATO. never did. nor did soviet georgia need to be,
and we dont want russian troops in canada and chinese troops on the rio grande.
just some basic realpolitik.
- KKM
{ sipping coffee }
we don't have 'clean hands'.
- Judge Judy BHJ
Tickle the lion and you get swatted. and Ukraine should have never believed a word out of our mouths.
Putin and Xi are executing the script to perfection.
you serious, clark?ATL Bear said:While it may be true, their hands are quite a bit bloodier than ours.william said:the US has been more involved in the Ukraine in the last decades than Russia.ATL Bear said:Putin's doing his best to make NATO not a relic.william said:meh - NATO is a relic. observed mostly in the breach.ATL Bear said:Georgia was the original thwarting of NATO and US visions of security in that region. It's been creeping up with each step ever since. From Crimea to Eastern Ukraine, meddling in Ukrainian independence etc. Smaller versions of the same thing we're facing today.bear2be2 said:I don't view the Georgia and Crimea wars as equivalents to a full-scale invasion of Ukraine for a lot of reasons.ATL Bear said:It happened 8 and 14 years ago and we managed not to go to war with Russia. In fact a decade ago Obama was chastising Romney for even thinking Russia was a problem. Terrorism and rogue states were the rage for most of the past 2 decades,bear2be2 said:I think at the presidential level, we have absolutely seen that shift, and that's significant since congress has ceded most of its constitutional duties to the president.Redbrickbear said:Both parties have been punished by the American people for their war mongering.bear2be2 said:And his party's chosen successor was widely rejected in favor of Donald freaking Trump.Doc Holliday said:Wow, Tractor supply…right because everyone who isn't a democrat has to be some rural MAGA loving part time employee at Tractor supply. Try not to use insults when you're attempting to make a point.timetraveler said:I don't know where you live but we had constant protests here about droning brown people through both those admins. They only stopped when Trump got elected.Doc Holliday said:It depends on what Americans you're talking about. When Obama and Bush killed A LOT of innocent people through mismanaged drone strikes, it never became a big topic. It was never a topic the "anti-war" left discussed or was outraged about on a massive scale, they still showed up and voted the guys in for another term and they continued to drop bombs like crazy, especially Obama.bear2be2 said:This would imply that Americans were in support of those wars. They weren't. In fact, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done more to reshape the public's view of war and military intervention than anything since Vietnam -- maybe more since hawkish policies were still the norm until the past 20 years.Doc Holliday said:
And if you're right that the majority doesn't support these wars, then it's factual that the ruling class doesn't represent the people.
Your manager at Tractor Supply has mislead you.
Obama didn't listen to those protests and neither did democrats.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been punished politically for their foreign policy missteps. And we've seen a policy/philosophy shift as a result.
But have we really seen a true policy shift by the leadership?
Seriously, both sides leadership seems in lock step right now in favor of ramping up hostilities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/ukraine-congress-bipartisan-trump-biden/
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082602594/ukraine-crisis-draws-new-resolve-from-bipartisan-lawmakers-with-some-gop-critics
I think if this had happened even 10 years ago, we'd already be at war with Russia. But public sentiment forces politicians -- even those with hawk tendencies -- to act out of political self preservation.
But reality is we really don't care about Ukraine. It's the next advance that has everyone wondering.
we dont need / want ukraine to be in NATO. never did. nor did soviet georgia need to be,
and we dont want russian troops in canada and chinese troops on the rio grande.
just some basic realpolitik.
- KKM
{ sipping coffee }
we don't have 'clean hands'.
- Judge Judy BHJ
Tickle the lion and you get swatted. and Ukraine should have never believed a word out of our mouths.
Putin and Xi are executing the script to perfection.
And don't assume Xi and Putin are in sync. Russia is devolving into a subordinate to China, and an unhealthy balance in their economic relationship is on steroids at this moment.
