Ukraine invaded by Putin

84,741 Views | 1093 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by HuMcK
Proud 1992 Alum
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A few thoughts:

1. After the 2014 proxy war continuing until the present, even Ukrainians in the east have become more and more opposed to Russia regardless of ethnicity. Ukrainian patriotism has been on the rise over those years.

2. I think Ukraine has 44 million people. I don't see how you can hold that huge population and maintain order, especially given the seething anger that will be present in the population after countless deaths and destruction. Guerrilla attacks will be rampant. Hopefully, the U.S. will arm the resistance indefinitely.

3. I doubt many Russian soldiers are happy to be fighting in Ukraine. On the other hand, Ukrainians are fighting for their survival and independence. Discord in the Russian military would be helpful.

4. I am hoping that the Ukrainians can send as many body bags back to Russia as possible while the western powers cripple the Russian economy. The west should also have a major information campaign to influence the average Russian citizen. Photos and videos from the front type stuff. My hope is that enough of the Russian population will rise up so that the rich and powerful in Russia take down Putin.

5. The sanctions to date aren't enough. Everything should be done to damage Russia in every way imaginable. What does Putin have to do to reap the full slate of sanctions?

6. China is watching. Strong action today by the U.S. may allow us to avoid even worst scenarios in the Pacific. We are failing the test to date.
Canada2017
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redfish961 said:

Redbrickbear said:

redfish961 said:

Redbrickbear said:

redfish961 said:

Redbrickbear said:

Current advances of Russian forces

Where is this from?

Obviously ground units.

Would be interesting to keep up with.
Ex-major I follow on Twitter posted it.

Have no idea where he got it
I think the advancements, no matter how minor now, says everything anyone needs to know about Russia's intentions.

Coming from all angles.

Will be interesting to see how NATO reacts.
I actually know the guy personally in real life.

He is a conservative and a cool person.

He seems to think Putin will not stop with East bank (ethnic Russian) Ukraine but is gonna try and take the whole country.

He does not think NATO will do anything unless a NATO country is attacked.

And he thinks the US leadership made a huge mistake in pushing for Ukrainian membership in NATO and pulling the country out of Moscow orbit.


Not sure how he plans on managing that and I'd have to assume it's going to be more difficult and strenuous than he anticipated.
Traditional Russian methods.........execute anyone who remotely gets in their way .
drahthaar
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IF THE FREE NATIONS WANT A CERTAIN KIND OF WORLD, THEY WILL HAVE TO FIGHT FOR IT, WITH COURAGE, MONEY, DIPLOMACY---AND LEGIONS.

T. R. Fehrenbach in his history of the Korean War: This Kind of War


Fehrenbach shared that combat, later writing history and columns for the San Antonio Express News.
FLBear5630
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Friend's Grandmother was ordered on buses by Russians to be taken to a safe place. Family telling g her stay put, do not get on any bus or train. Sounds like they are rounding people up if accurate.

As for comment on Ukraine and NATO being a mistake. Don't the people in the country have a right to want and ask to NOT be in Moscow orbit? I guess, according to some on here 43 million people should just sacrifice their lives so that Putin won't be upset? They don't get a say?

Disagree with the cool Major. I think what we are seeing now and in 2014 justifies Ukraines fears and desires to join NATO, it was their only hope of survival. But that don't matter, its only Ukraine.
boognish_bear
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BearFan33
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I'm trying to think what does Russia get out of the deal if they take over Ukraine?

I think there is a strategic port. Are big gas/oil reserves to loot?

Is this mostly for Putin's vanity or are there long term benefits for the whole of Russia?
boognish_bear
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Married A Horn
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Who is winning this war? I was under the impression Russia would win in a week (a.k.a. Nazy vs Poland 1939). I wake this morning and read: No Russian objectives met; All Russian advances halted; Putin bit off more than he can chew; Ukraine retakes Kyiv airport; Russia has 3 to 4 times the casualties...

These were from many different sources from the right and left.

I also read that someone estimated Kyiv falls within 4 days.

Ukraine doesnt have a chance, do they?
Robert Wilson
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BearFan33 said:

I'm trying to think what does Russia get out of the deal if they take over Ukraine?

I think there is a strategic port. Are big gas/oil reserves to loot?

Is this mostly for Putin's vanity or are there long term benefits for the whole of Russia?
In part, its historic and symbolic. Kyev is where the Russian Orthodox Church was founded (baptism of Vladimir of the Rus), and Putin may see it as key in the current Russian revival.

Combine that with the fact that Russia itself has stagnated for decades, and irrelevance may be Putin's greatest concern. The only "growth" path available is through expansion into what they view as historic Russian territories.

Couple guesses there, anyway. I don't think they care much about economic sanctions. I don't think they view this as primarily economic.
FLBear5630
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BearFan33 said:

I'm trying to think what does Russia get out of the deal if they take over Ukraine?

I think there is a strategic port. Are big gas/oil reserves to loot?

Is this mostly for Putin's vanity or are there long term benefits for the whole of Russia?


This is a test case. Serves multiple purposes.

1- tests NATO and US resolve
2- Bloodies his troops. Gets seasoned vets out of this. No one has fought a conventional ground war against a modern opponent. Russia now has more experience.
3- Created avenue for China alliance

Only way this makes sense is if there are next steps.
BearFan33
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Robert Wilson said:

BearFan33 said:

I'm trying to think what does Russia get out of the deal if they take over Ukraine?

I think there is a strategic port. Are big gas/oil reserves to loot?

Is this mostly for Putin's vanity or are there long term benefits for the whole of Russia?
In part, its historic and symbolic. Kyev is where the Russian Orthodox Church was founded (baptism of Vladimir of the Rus), and Putin may see it as key in the current Russian revival.

Combine that with the fact that Russia itself has stagnated for decades, and irrelevance may be Putin's greatest concern. The only "growth" path available is through expansion into what they view as historic Russian territories.

Couple guesses there, anyway. I don't think they care much about economic sanctions. I don't think they view this as primarily economic.
I talked with a few folks from the region and they believe what putin ultimately wants is to have a govt there that is largely a Russian puppet and has no desire to join NATO. He would be fine getting these things at the negotiation table which is why China has entered the picture. China gets to strut like a peacock on the world stage and Putin gets what he wants.

I'm not sure what the best thing for the West is in all of this. It's pretty clear we need to get Europe from sucking on the Russia energy teat. But they need energy options and they are infected with green fever. The USA could supply them with abundant liquified natural gas (obtained much cleaner than russian gas), but I don't think our current leadership has the desire or competence to make this happen.
FLBear5630
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Robert Wilson said:

BearFan33 said:

I'm trying to think what does Russia get out of the deal if they take over Ukraine?

I think there is a strategic port. Are big gas/oil reserves to loot?

Is this mostly for Putin's vanity or are there long term benefits for the whole of Russia?
In part, its historic and symbolic. Kyev is where the Russian Orthodox Church was founded (baptism of Vladimir of the Rus), and Putin may see it as key in the current Russian revival.

Combine that with the fact that Russia itself has stagnated for decades, and irrelevance may be Putin's greatest concern. The only "growth" path available is through expansion into what they view as historic Russian territories.

Couple guesses there, anyway. I don't think they care much about economic sanctions. I don't think they view this as primarily economic.


I agree, when have sanctions ever worked? They have China now, will tie economy to China if needed. Putin understands one thing, stop me. That he understands
Robert Wilson
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BearFan33 said:

Robert Wilson said:

BearFan33 said:

I'm trying to think what does Russia get out of the deal if they take over Ukraine?

I think there is a strategic port. Are big gas/oil reserves to loot?

Is this mostly for Putin's vanity or are there long term benefits for the whole of Russia?
In part, its historic and symbolic. Kyev is where the Russian Orthodox Church was founded (baptism of Vladimir of the Rus), and Putin may see it as key in the current Russian revival.

Combine that with the fact that Russia itself has stagnated for decades, and irrelevance may be Putin's greatest concern. The only "growth" path available is through expansion into what they view as historic Russian territories.

Couple guesses there, anyway. I don't think they care much about economic sanctions. I don't think they view this as primarily economic.
I talked with a few folks from the region and they believe what putin ultimately wants is to have a govt there that is largely a Russian puppet and has no desire to join NATO. He would be fine getting these things at the negotiation table which is why China has entered the picture. China gets to strut like a peacock on the world stage and Putin gets what he wants.

I'm not sure what the best thing for the West is in all of this. It's pretty clear we need to get Europe from sucking on the Russia energy teat. But they need energy options and they are infected with green fever. The USA could supply them with abundant liquified natural gas (obtained much cleaner than russian gas), but I don't think our current leadership has the desire or competence to make this happen.
Yes, moving away from energy independence and aggressive export was one of the stupidest things we could have done here. And of course we did.
Cobretti
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ShooterTX
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Redbrickbear said:

Johnny Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Ukrainians know their recent history ......Stalin murdered hundreds of thousands of them before, during and after WW2.

Assuming you're including Stalin's genocide by starvation of the "Kulaks" it wasn't hundreds of thousands - it was millions. Hitler actually took a back seat to Stalin as a fellow genocidal maniac.
Yea Stalin and Mao killed far more people than Hitler.

But since most people get their history from Hollywood they don't know that.
I think Mao still holds the 1st place position... but he also covered up a lot better than the others, so it's hard to get an accurate count.
ShooterTX
ShooterTX
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Canada2017 said:

Johnny Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Ukrainians know their recent history ......Stalin murdered hundreds of thousands of them before, during and after WW2.

Assuming you're including Stalin's genocide by starvation of the "Koolaks" it wasn't hundreds of thousands - it was millions. Hitler actually took a back seat to Stalin as a fellow genocidal maniac.
Wasn't including those murdered by starvation......rather by strait up executions .

But your point is taken...if one does include such data the death count goes into the millions

Ukrainians haven't forgotten....though the rest of the world pleads ignorance .
I think most people include the starvation of Ukraine, since it was a deliberate action by Stalin. He literally took food out of the Ukraine to feed Russia, with full knowledge that people in Ukraine were starving to death.
They were actually harvesting wheat in Ukraine, but shipping it out... that's pretty damn cold.
ShooterTX
Jacques Strap
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Quote:

Over three months, senior Biden administration officials held half a dozen urgent meetings with top Chinese officials in which the Americans presented intelligence showing Russia's troop buildup around Ukraine and beseeched the Chinese to tell Russia not to invade, according to U.S. officials.

Each time, the Chinese officials, including the foreign minister and the ambassador to the United States, rebuffed the Americans, saying they did not think an invasion was in the works. After one diplomatic exchange in December, U.S. officials got intelligence showing Beijing had shared the information with Moscow, telling the Russians that the United States was trying to sow discord and that China would not try to impede Russian plans and actions, the officials said.

The previously unreported talks between American and Chinese officials show how the Biden administration tried to use intelligence findings and diplomacy to persuade a superpower it views as a growing adversary to stop the invasion of Ukraine, and how that nation, led by President Xi Jinping, persistently sided with Russia even as the evidence of Moscow's plans for a military offensive grew over the winter.
ShooterTX
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midgett said:

boognish_bear said:

Booboo Bear said:

The stones on this woman. Respect.




I'm curious how many of these Rus soldiers believe in what they are being asked to do
Overheard a reporter say that many young Russian soldiers were told they were just going to do military exercises. Some may not be all in. It may be why there are protests in Moscow.

With all the protesting we've seen the past few years, would anything be more beautiful than Putin's own people protesting to the point they will not fight and he has to withdraw? Very slim chances but it would be beautiful. It would also be the start of the "peasants" in every country deciding the elite will no longer rule. That goes for the USA, too.
This is pure fantasy.

Russia is NOTHING like the US. The average Russian knows that they have no chance to stand against their government. They have been taught to fall in line and follow orders, or else their entire family will simply disappear. The US has nothing like that in our history, which is why we are much quicker to protest something we do not like.

People often say that 2A advocates are stupid because the US government could just use tanks and helicopters to destroy any resistance, if it ever came to that. Well... people in Russia have seen their government do exactly that, and far worse, in their own lifetimes. They don't have a 2A in Russia, and they have a history of brutally destroying any resistance.
ShooterTX
bear2be2
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boognish_bear said:


The West has totally ****ed Ukraine. Left them defenseless only to leave them defenseless.

Moral of this story: Keep your nukes. It's the only leverage any of these countries have when push comes to shove.
Wrecks Quan Dough
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bear2be2 said:

boognish_bear said:


The West has totally ****ed Ukraine. Left them defenseless only to leave them defenseless.

Moral of this story: Keep your nukes. It's the only leverage any of these countries have when push comes to shove.
You cannot ever trust anyone except yourself for both personal and national defense. Even NATO countries can promise to assist other NATO countries under Article 5 if attacked. That does not mean they will send more than a mine sweeper.
Canada2017
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ShooterTX said:

Canada2017 said:

Johnny Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Ukrainians know their recent history ......Stalin murdered hundreds of thousands of them before, during and after WW2.

Assuming you're including Stalin's genocide by starvation of the "Koolaks" it wasn't hundreds of thousands - it was millions. Hitler actually took a back seat to Stalin as a fellow genocidal maniac.
Wasn't including those murdered by starvation......rather by strait up executions .

But your point is taken...if one does include such data the death count goes into the millions

Ukrainians haven't forgotten....though the rest of the world pleads ignorance .
I think most people include the starvation of Ukraine, since it was a deliberate action by Stalin. He literally took food out of the Ukraine to feed Russia, with full knowledge that people in Ukraine were starving to death.
They were actually harvesting wheat in Ukraine, but shipping it out... that's pretty damn cold.
All true.

But the vast majority of Americans couldn't find Ukraine on a map 2 weeks ago ......much less comprehend the traditional hatred Russians have for Ukrainians .

Suspect Putin's invasion is popular with a majority of Russians . Certainly more than our media would like to admit .
FLBear5630
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Canada2017 said:

ShooterTX said:

Canada2017 said:

Johnny Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Ukrainians know their recent history ......Stalin murdered hundreds of thousands of them before, during and after WW2.

Assuming you're including Stalin's genocide by starvation of the "Koolaks" it wasn't hundreds of thousands - it was millions. Hitler actually took a back seat to Stalin as a fellow genocidal maniac.
Wasn't including those murdered by starvation......rather by strait up executions .

But your point is taken...if one does include such data the death count goes into the millions

Ukrainians haven't forgotten....though the rest of the world pleads ignorance .
I think most people include the starvation of Ukraine, since it was a deliberate action by Stalin. He literally took food out of the Ukraine to feed Russia, with full knowledge that people in Ukraine were starving to death.
They were actually harvesting wheat in Ukraine, but shipping it out... that's pretty damn cold.
All true.

But the vast majority of Americans couldn't find Ukraine on a map 2 weeks ago ......much less comprehend the traditional hatred Russians have for Ukrainians .

Suspect Putin's invasion is popular with a majority of Russians . Certainly more than our media would like to admit .


Ukraine tried to break away and move West. West basically shunned them and let Russia brutalize them. I thought that was why we fought the Cold War to let those nations make up their own mind on how to live. Unless it becomes inconvenient.
Mitch Blood Green
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Married A Horn said:

Who is winning this war? I was under the impression Russia would win in a week (a.k.a. Nazy vs Poland 1939). I wake this morning and read: No Russian objectives met; All Russian advances halted; Putin bit off more than he can chew; Ukraine retakes Kyiv airport; Russia has 3 to 4 times the casualties...

These were from many different sources from the right and left.

I also read that someone estimated Kyiv falls within 4 days.

Ukraine doesnt have a chance, do they?


They'll be two waves. Ukraine can't stop Russians from marching in and taking land.

Then phase two will begin. It'll be bloody. I don't see how 200,000 people can hold back a determine and well armed 40M people (unless they're Afghanistan)
Sam Lowry
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bear2be2 said:

boognish_bear said:


The West has totally ****ed Ukraine. Left them defenseless only to leave them defenseless.

Moral of this story: Keep your nukes. It's the only leverage any of these countries have when push comes to shove.
I don't know about that, but at least keep your conventional weapons. They could use the ones now that we convinced them to destroy.
FLBear5630
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tommie said:

Married A Horn said:

Who is winning this war? I was under the impression Russia would win in a week (a.k.a. Nazy vs Poland 1939). I wake this morning and read: No Russian objectives met; All Russian advances halted; Putin bit off more than he can chew; Ukraine retakes Kyiv airport; Russia has 3 to 4 times the casualties...

These were from many different sources from the right and left.

I also read that someone estimated Kyiv falls within 4 days.

Ukraine doesnt have a chance, do they?


They'll be two waves. Ukraine can't stop Russians from marching in and taking land.

Then phase two will begin. It'll be bloody. I don't see how 200,000 people can hold back a determine and we'll armed 40M people (unless they're Afghanistan)


Afghanastan never faced this. It was always a side show type war, neither us or the Soviets never went in and invaded to this level and for the long term.

Russia will bring in ethnic Russians to replace Ukrainians. This is the full monty, not just a limited action
ShooterTX
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BearFan33 said:

I'm trying to think what does Russia get out of the deal if they take over Ukraine?

I think there is a strategic port. Are big gas/oil reserves to loot?

Is this mostly for Putin's vanity or are there long term benefits for the whole of Russia?
Ukraine has minerals including some rare earth minerals. It also allows Russia to have a buffer against the west. If war breaks out between Russia and NATO, they don't want ground fighting in the homeland, but rather have it in Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, etc.
Capturing Ukraine also gives them strategic control over the Black Sea.
ShooterTX
Redbrickbear
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bear2be2 said:

boognish_bear said:


The West has totally ****ed Ukraine. Left them defenseless only to leave them defenseless.

Moral of this story: Keep your nukes. It's the only leverage any of these countries have when push comes to shove.
Ukraine could not afford to keep the nukes.

Its enormously expensive.

Even today France can't really even afford it...or at least they don't want to take away from domestic spending to do it.

Secretly rich Germany is paying for Frances nuclear arsenal to be kept up.
Canada2017
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tommie said:

Married A Horn said:

Who is winning this war? I was under the impression Russia would win in a week (a.k.a. Nazy vs Poland 1939). I wake this morning and read: No Russian objectives met; All Russian advances halted; Putin bit off more than he can chew; Ukraine retakes Kyiv airport; Russia has 3 to 4 times the casualties...

These were from many different sources from the right and left.

I also read that someone estimated Kyiv falls within 4 days.

Ukraine doesnt have a chance, do they?




I don't see how 200,000 people can hold back a determine and well armed 40M people (unless they're Afghanistan)
Because you are thinking like an American liberal encased in first world prosperity .

Russian occupied most of Eastern Europe for over 50 years utilizing their traditional subjugation tactics.

Executing tens of thousands of suspected opponents ....especially those in the educated / military / professional classes. Imprisoning thousands more without trial . Often people were basically kidnapped in the middle of the night by Russian security forces and not heard from for years....if ever.

This tactic was found to be even more effective than executions .

Americans have an incredibly hard time accepting that any regime can be so brutal .



Jack Bauer
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J.R.
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Redbrickbear said:

bear2be2 said:

boognish_bear said:


The West has totally ****ed Ukraine. Left them defenseless only to leave them defenseless.

Moral of this story: Keep your nukes. It's the only leverage any of these countries have when push comes to shove.
Ukraine could not afford to keep the nukes.

Its enormously expensive.

Even today France can't really even afford it...or at least they don't want to take away from domestic spending to do it.

Secretly rich Germany is paying for Frances nuclear arsenal to be kept up.
No, they agreed to give them up in return for being an autonomous country post break up of the USSR.
Redbrickbear
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J.R. said:

Redbrickbear said:

bear2be2 said:

boognish_bear said:


The West has totally ****ed Ukraine. Left them defenseless only to leave them defenseless.

Moral of this story: Keep your nukes. It's the only leverage any of these countries have when push comes to shove.
Ukraine could not afford to keep the nukes.

Its enormously expensive.

Even today France can't really even afford it...or at least they don't want to take away from domestic spending to do it.

Secretly rich Germany is paying for Frances nuclear arsenal to be kept up.
No, they agreed to give them up in return for being an autonomous country post break up of the USSR.
That was the agreement....but they also could not financially afford to keep them as well.

Few Nation-states can.
ShooterTX
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Canada2017 said:

tommie said:

Married A Horn said:

Who is winning this war? I was under the impression Russia would win in a week (a.k.a. Nazy vs Poland 1939). I wake this morning and read: No Russian objectives met; All Russian advances halted; Putin bit off more than he can chew; Ukraine retakes Kyiv airport; Russia has 3 to 4 times the casualties...

These were from many different sources from the right and left.

I also read that someone estimated Kyiv falls within 4 days.

Ukraine doesnt have a chance, do they?




I don't see how 200,000 people can hold back a determine and well armed 40M people (unless they're Afghanistan)
Because you are thinking like an American liberal encased in first world prosperity .

Russian occupied most of Eastern Europe for over 50 years utilizing their traditional subjugation tactics.

Executing tens of thousands of suspected opponents ....especially those in the educated / military / professional classes. Imprisoning thousands more without trial . Often people were basically kidnapped in the middle of the night by Russian security forces and not heard from for years....if ever.

This tactic was found to be even more effective than executions .

Americans have an incredibly hard time accepting that any regime can be so brutal .




We shouldn't be surprised.
The dems have made sex and LGBTQ the main focus of our education system, for decades. They did everything they could to stop the truth about communism and the Cold War, from being taught in American schools.

It is sad just how many people do not understand that brutality has been the norm in most of Asia & Africa, for thousands of years. Kids today think that everyone in the world is either just like America, or at least holds the same values & principles as Americans.
ShooterTX
Canada2017
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ShooterTX said:

Canada2017 said:

tommie said:

Married A Horn said:

Who is winning this war? I was under the impression Russia would win in a week (a.k.a. Nazy vs Poland 1939). I wake this morning and read: No Russian objectives met; All Russian advances halted; Putin bit off more than he can chew; Ukraine retakes Kyiv airport; Russia has 3 to 4 times the casualties...

These were from many different sources from the right and left.

I also read that someone estimated Kyiv falls within 4 days.

Ukraine doesnt have a chance, do they?




I don't see how 200,000 people can hold back a determine and well armed 40M people (unless they're Afghanistan)
Because you are thinking like an American liberal encased in first world prosperity .

Russian occupied most of Eastern Europe for over 50 years utilizing their traditional subjugation tactics.

Executing tens of thousands of suspected opponents ....especially those in the educated / military / professional classes. Imprisoning thousands more without trial . Often people were basically kidnapped in the middle of the night by Russian security forces and not heard from for years....if ever.

This tactic was found to be even more effective than executions .

Americans have an incredibly hard time accepting that any regime can be so brutal .




We shouldn't be surprised.
The dems have made sex and LGBTQ the main focus of our education system, for decades. They did everything they could to stop the truth about communism and the Cold War, from being taught in American schools.

It is sad just how many people do not understand that brutality has been the norm in most of Asia & Africa, for thousands of years. Kids today think that everyone in the world is either just like America, or at least holds the same values & principles as Americans.
Exactly

Once had a client from Dresden, Germany . The Berlin Wall had been down for only a few months and he and his wife were thrilled to take a job with Woodward Governor in Fort Collins, Colorado .

I asked him if his family had any personal memories about the Dresden fire bombing at the very end of WW2.
He gave me a long, hard look and said I was the first American he had ever met that knew the first thing about the atrocity .

A week later he brought me their family album loaded with pictures of the carnage .

Explained that although he was happy to be in Colorado.....he found our people to be incredibly naive and basically under educated.
Redbrickbear
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ShooterTX said:

Canada2017 said:

tommie said:

Married A Horn said:

Who is winning this war? I was under the impression Russia would win in a week (a.k.a. Nazy vs Poland 1939). I wake this morning and read: No Russian objectives met; All Russian advances halted; Putin bit off more than he can chew; Ukraine retakes Kyiv airport; Russia has 3 to 4 times the casualties...

These were from many different sources from the right and left.

I also read that someone estimated Kyiv falls within 4 days.

Ukraine doesnt have a chance, do they?




I don't see how 200,000 people can hold back a determine and well armed 40M people (unless they're Afghanistan)
Because you are thinking like an American liberal encased in first world prosperity .

Russian occupied most of Eastern Europe for over 50 years utilizing their traditional subjugation tactics.

Executing tens of thousands of suspected opponents ....especially those in the educated / military / professional classes. Imprisoning thousands more without trial . Often people were basically kidnapped in the middle of the night by Russian security forces and not heard from for years....if ever.

This tactic was found to be even more effective than executions .

Americans have an incredibly hard time accepting that any regime can be so brutal .




We shouldn't be surprised.
The dems have made sex and LGBTQ the main focus of our education system, for decades. They did everything they could to stop the truth about communism and the Cold War, from being taught in American schools.

It is sad just how many people do not understand that brutality has been the norm in most of Asia & Africa, for thousands of years. Kids today think that everyone in the world is either just like America, or at least holds the same values & principles as Americans.
Because of Hollywood and our education system a great many people in this country think brutality, conquest, and genocide are specific products of White-Christian-Western civilization.

You know...instead of just the regular norm throughout human history.

I can't even begin to count the number of White girls that have told me it was White people who invented slavery.

That claim alone is staggering in its stupidity.
Doc Holliday
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