Ukraine invaded by Putin

84,515 Views | 1093 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by HuMcK
Jacques Strap
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There are still channels to pay Germany's gas bills -econ ministry

BERLIN, Feb 28 (Reuters) - There are still channels by which Germany's gas bills can be paid despite the exclusion of Russia from the main global payments system SWIFT, an economy ministry spokesperson said on Monday.

At the same time, it is impossible to estimate the total impact of sanctions against Russia on the German economy at the moment, the spokesperson said.
FLBear5630
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BornAgain said:

I do not see Russia stopping with Ukraine. i dont think Ukraine is our fight but i believe the neighboring Baltic NATO countries will need help. wouldnt surprise me at all to see China attempt to get Taiwan at the same time.

MSM loves a war to cover. Not sure how much we hear from the rag news agency is true. But probably not far off
I would have agreed with you last week. I am not sure the Russian military is capable of taking the Baltics from NATO. Damn sure aren't going to take Poland. Putin better no mess with the Fins, what the Russian's have shown will be a blood bath up there.

So, I think Russia has to take the Eastern Ukraine and reconsolidate. It looks like any real command and control with combined arms would give Russia problems. Reminds me of how Iraq fought. Just thoughts popping in my head, not an argument or disagreeing. Interesting question though.
Booray
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Jacques Strap said:


I thought we wanted a strong Europe able and willing to lead on issues that impact them the most? I also imagine that European leaders are comforted in knowing we have their back. Its sad that we live to criticize our own, no matter what.

Biden's response to this has not been perfect but it has been good to this point. Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?
FLBear5630
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Booray said:

Jacques Strap said:


I thought we wanted a strong Europe able and willing to lead on issues that impact them the most? I also imagine that European leaders are comforted in knowing we have their back. Its sad that we live to criticize our own, no matter what.

Biden's response to this has not been perfect but it has been good to this point. Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?
I agree. I really have no issue with Biden on this issue. I thought he telegraphed too much to Putin that we would not fight. But, he also moved troops into the Baltics and Poland. I don't think he has done so well to overlook his other issues, but I won't ding him on this.
Wrecks Quan Dough
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Booray said:

Jacques Strap said:


Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?


That and Ukrainian independence are the primary objectives.
Cobretti
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Jack Bauer
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Cobretti said:



GFY

Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-regionion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Wrecks Quan Dough
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Jack Bauer said:

Cobretti said:



GFY

Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-regionion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news




She has to be peed off that the liquor store stopped selling the real Vodka.
ATL Bear
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Booray said:

Jacques Strap said:


I thought we wanted a strong Europe able and willing to lead on issues that impact them the most? I also imagine that European leaders are comforted in knowing we have their back. Its sad that we live to criticize our own, no matter what.

Biden's response to this has not been perfect but it has been good to this point. Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?
My answer would be to not shoot ourselves in the foot in the first place. Many of these energy moves that are necessary for the economy and security were an out of the gate priority of this administration. Literally some are from executive orders during the first week. Europe is just cleaning up a progressive mess that has them here.
HuMcK
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MT_Bear
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Booray said:

Jacques Strap said:


I thought we wanted a strong Europe able and willing to lead on issues that impact them the most? I also imagine that European leaders are comforted in knowing we have their back. Its sad that we live to criticize our own, no matter what.

Biden's response to this has not been perfect but it has been good to this point. Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?
Yep. Biden's response has been fine - not perfect, but perfectly reasonable, measured, and effective without upping escalation too rapidly, and making sure that the US is not speaking for all of NATO (as has often felt the case before) but instead allowing each NATO nation to independently announce their own sanctions. For the love of god I wish Americans could just work together (thank god congress mostly is), rather than use such a tragic and potentially dangerous moment in history as just one more tool for division. This bull**** is why I affiliate with neither party.
Canada2017
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Booray said:

Canada2017 said:

J.R. said:

Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Cobretti said:


Belarus has no choice but to do so .

That small 'country' is little more than a Russian military reservation .

Russia has always used Belarus as a forward attack base in any potential war with NATO.
Lukashenko predates Putin. He's as much a dictator as him.

Here's your no fly zone target.
Lukashenko does predate Putin ....yet owes his position ( and probably his very existence ) to Putin .

Any no fly zone expands to war within weeks .




So unless one is willing to risk 300- 1000 hydrogen bombs devasting the United States ....all in the name of Ukrainian independence ........lets not get involved militarily .

Instead ......dramatically tighten up the ridiculous loopholes currently in place with the sanctions . Beginning with US imports of Russian oil.
If we stop Russian imports of oil, you are looking at $150 Oil. Great for my business, but bad for our economy and even worse for Europe. That is why they didn't include energy in the latest sanctions.
Understood

But in combination with the other more legitimate sanctions....it would hurt the Russians far worse.

So are we serious about stopping Putin's obvious trend of expansionism .....or are we just kidding ourselves while playing temporary virtue signaling games ?

With the potential of stumbling into WW3 if Putin attacks a NATO ally next .
The ruble has already collapsed, Russian interest rates are soaring and they had to close their market. Maybe we should see if the steps we have taken are enough before we shoot ourself in the foot?
Got to stop Putin now...without direct military interaction....or we run a huge risk of losing far more than a foot.
Wrecks Quan Dough
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Canada2017 said:

Booray said:

Canada2017 said:

J.R. said:

Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Cobretti said:


Belarus has no choice but to do so .

That small 'country' is little more than a Russian military reservation .

Russia has always used Belarus as a forward attack base in any potential war with NATO.
Lukashenko predates Putin. He's as much a dictator as him.

Here's your no fly zone target.
Lukashenko does predate Putin ....yet owes his position ( and probably his very existence ) to Putin .

Any no fly zone expands to war within weeks .




So unless one is willing to risk 300- 1000 hydrogen bombs devasting the United States ....all in the name of Ukrainian independence ........lets not get involved militarily .

Instead ......dramatically tighten up the ridiculous loopholes currently in place with the sanctions . Beginning with US imports of Russian oil.
If we stop Russian imports of oil, you are looking at $150 Oil. Great for my business, but bad for our economy and even worse for Europe. That is why they didn't include energy in the latest sanctions.
Understood

But in combination with the other more legitimate sanctions....it would hurt the Russians far worse.

So are we serious about stopping Putin's obvious trend of expansionism .....or are we just kidding ourselves while playing temporary virtue signaling games ?

With the potential of stumbling into WW3 if Putin attacks a NATO ally next .
The ruble has already collapsed, Russian interest rates are soaring and they had to close their market. Maybe we should see if the steps we have taken are enough before we shoot ourself in the foot?
Got to stop Putin now...without direct military interaction....or we run a huge risk of losing far more than a foot.
Time to get the band back together again. Put in the call for Sheen, Swayze, and the rest of the Wolverines.

Maybe a little Mike & the Mechanics, Silent Running in the background. Yep, good memories. I sure miss the 80s.
Doc Holliday
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FLBear5630
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Doc Holliday said:


Another one that does not take what the 40 million people in Ukraine want. All these history buffs seem to think that self-determinism has no value or place in being a sovereign nation. NATO should ask Putin who can enter.

Totally disagree with this guy, if Ukraine wanted or wants membership and is willing to do what is required they should be allowed to make that determination not Putin.
Jacques Strap
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Ukraine says dozens killed in indiscriminate shelling in Kharkiv

The Ukrainian military said Monday that dozens of civilians were killed and hundreds wounded when Russian forces began firing indiscriminately at civilian areas in Kharkiv, a city in northeastern Ukraine on the border with Russia.

Why it matters: Kharkiv is the second-largest city in Ukraine, with a population of nearly 1.5 million people. Ukrainian forces have retained control of Kharkiv even as the city has endured some of the earliest and most intense clashes of the entire conflict.

  • Verified videos on social media show Russian rockets being launched into civilian high-rise apartment buildings, causing mass destruction and an untold number of casualties.
  • Russia had previously claimed that it is only targeting military infrastructure. Ukraine says it has documented attacks on residential areas and accused Russian forces of war crimes.
---------------

Russian forces shell residential neighborhood in Kharkiv, Ukraine, despite Russia's promise to not target civilian areas. CNN's Alex Marquardt reports.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-kharkiv-shelling-marquardt-inside-politics-vpx.cnn
Jacques Strap
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Swiss Ditch Historic Neutrality to Enforce Russia Sanctions

(Bloomberg) -- The Swiss government broke with a long-entrenched tradition of neutrality and agreed to enforce European Union sanctions against Russian companies and individuals including President Vladimir Putin and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

The government's decision Monday to implement the sanctions with immediate effect -- which prompted Lavrov to cancel a planned trip to Geneva -- came after a weekend in which it was criticized by opposition politicians and in editorials in leading Swiss papers as well as by other governments.

The European Commission on Friday urged Switzerland to follow its lead on punishing the Kremlin, noting that although not an EU member state, it's still "part of Europe."

Swiss President Ignazio Cassis told reporters Monday that adopting the EU sanctions is not a black-and-white decision that precludes it playing a role as a neutral party in the future, but rather a case of choosing where to put the emphasis.

"Given the huge violation of international law that's taken place in the last few days, the Swiss government has put an emphasis on the respect and protection of values that are the basis for our civilization," Cassis said at a news conference in Bern.
GrowlTowel
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Amal Shuq-Up said:

Canada2017 said:

Booray said:

Canada2017 said:

J.R. said:

Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Cobretti said:


Belarus has no choice but to do so .

That small 'country' is little more than a Russian military reservation .

Russia has always used Belarus as a forward attack base in any potential war with NATO.
Lukashenko predates Putin. He's as much a dictator as him.

Here's your no fly zone target.
Lukashenko does predate Putin ....yet owes his position ( and probably his very existence ) to Putin .

Any no fly zone expands to war within weeks .




So unless one is willing to risk 300- 1000 hydrogen bombs devasting the United States ....all in the name of Ukrainian independence ........lets not get involved militarily .

Instead ......dramatically tighten up the ridiculous loopholes currently in place with the sanctions . Beginning with US imports of Russian oil.
If we stop Russian imports of oil, you are looking at $150 Oil. Great for my business, but bad for our economy and even worse for Europe. That is why they didn't include energy in the latest sanctions.
Understood

But in combination with the other more legitimate sanctions....it would hurt the Russians far worse.

So are we serious about stopping Putin's obvious trend of expansionism .....or are we just kidding ourselves while playing temporary virtue signaling games ?

With the potential of stumbling into WW3 if Putin attacks a NATO ally next .
The ruble has already collapsed, Russian interest rates are soaring and they had to close their market. Maybe we should see if the steps we have taken are enough before we shoot ourself in the foot?
Got to stop Putin now...without direct military interaction....or we run a huge risk of losing far more than a foot.
Time to get the band back together again. Put in the call for Sheen, Swayze, and the rest of the Wolverines.

Maybe a little Mike & the Mechanics, Silent Running in the background. Yep, good memories. I sure miss the 80s.
At this point, it would be most helpful to get behind enemy lines. See if you can wrestle up Emmett Fitz-Hume and Austin Millbarge. Karen Boyer is still easy on the eyes as well.
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Canada2017
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Doc Holliday said:


Like Kennedy....history will be very kind to Biden .

As a disproportionate of it is written by liberals .
Cobretti
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J.B.Katz
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timetraveler said:

Redbrickbear said:

timetraveler said:

Redbrickbear said:

ScruffyD said:

this does not have to be such a d!ck measuring contest.

a lot of things brought us to today, plenty of "blame" to go around, for lack of a better word.

what we should do is be unified as a country in our support for another democracy.

that didn't used to be so hard.


Ukraine is no more a "democracy" than Russia.

It's an oligarchy riddled with corruption.
What an odd thing to believe.



Ranked #117th in the world.

Extreme corruption

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-anti-corruption-office/31501183.html

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/04/ukraine-oligarchy-deal-russia/



Is there any election you don't think was stolen?
From the 2020 election. I think the blond dude might be FL Mike.

nein51
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History is ridiculously kind to Kennedy but historians tend not to be. He was a terrible President but it would have been way out of bounds to write that post assassination. He was young, charismatic, good looking, very well spoken in an era where TV was still relatively new. It's really easy to see why he was so popular (sort of similar to Barack Obama, IMO). I just think that post mortem no one really had the nerve to question his presidency and, as such, it is remembered fondly for what it looked like rather than what it actually was.

There are 3 years left so it's too early to call but I dont see history being nearly so kind to Biden who, at this point, is about like Carter only far less likeable.
ATL Bear
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Doc Holliday said:


NATO membership was a bargaining chip before the guns started firing. I advocated heavily for not including Ukraine in NATO and even independence for the Eastern oblasts in Ukraine so Russian could have their "buffer". When they invaded and are also wrapping in another nation as a participant in that, you're proving the need for NATO participation, and the first negotiating point becomes "get the F out of Ukraine".
Booray
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nein51 said:

History is ridiculously kind to Kennedy but historians tend not to be. He was a terrible President but it would have been way out of bounds to write that post assassination. He was young, charismatic, good looking, very well spoken in an era where TV was still relatively new. It's really easy to see why he was so popular (sort of similar to Barack Obama, IMO). I just think that post mortem no one really had the nerve to question his presidency and, as such, it is remembered fondly for what it looked like rather than what it actually was.

There are 3 years left so it's too early to call but I dont see history being nearly so kind to Biden who, at this point, is about like Carter only far less likeable.
The other thing you are missing is that on the most consequential event of his administration-the Cuban Missile Crisis-he got a huge win.Plus he gets credit for the space program. Obviously he did not execute it, but he articulated the vision.
Booray
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ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:


NATO membership was a bargaining chip before the guns started firing. I advocated heavily for not including Ukraine in NATO and even independence for the Eastern oblasts in Ukraine so Russian could have their "buffer". When they invaded and are also wrapping in another nation as a participant in that, you're proving the need for NATO participation, and the first negotiating point becomes "get the F out of Ukraine".
The horror of all this is that the Ukrainian's brave resistance is about to unleash all sorts of hell there. Sounded like today that the Russians are ramping up there Chechnya play book: "let's just start razing cities." Obviously the Soviets did not have to face their economy crumbling last time they did that so maybe they will think better. But I bet not. I am afraid that this is about to get real ugly on the human suffering side.
nein51
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Booray said:

nein51 said:

History is ridiculously kind to Kennedy but historians tend not to be. He was a terrible President but it would have been way out of bounds to write that post assassination. He was young, charismatic, good looking, very well spoken in an era where TV was still relatively new. It's really easy to see why he was so popular (sort of similar to Barack Obama, IMO). I just think that post mortem no one really had the nerve to question his presidency and, as such, it is remembered fondly for what it looked like rather than what it actually was.

There are 3 years left so it's too early to call but I dont see history being nearly so kind to Biden who, at this point, is about like Carter only far less likeable.
The other thing you are missing is that on the most consequential event of his administration-the Cuban Missile Crisis-he got a huge win.Plus he gets credit for the space program. Obviously he did not execute it, but he articulated the vision.
I recommend reading "One Hell of a Gamble" by Fursenko and Naftali and "The Making of a Missile Crisis: October 1962" by Dinerstine.

And if you mean the crisis he and the CIA absolutely caused then, sure, not having nuclear war was a win.
ATL Bear
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Booray said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:


NATO membership was a bargaining chip before the guns started firing. I advocated heavily for not including Ukraine in NATO and even independence for the Eastern oblasts in Ukraine so Russian could have their "buffer". When they invaded and are also wrapping in another nation as a participant in that, you're proving the need for NATO participation, and the first negotiating point becomes "get the F out of Ukraine".
The horror of all this is that the Ukrainian's brave resistance is about to unleash all sorts of hell there. Sounded like today that the Russians are ramping up there Chechnya play book: "let's just start razing cities." Obviously the Soviets did not have to face their economy crumbling last time they did that so maybe they will think better. But I bet not. I am afraid that this is about to get real ugly on the human suffering side.

Yep. The old school dumb weapons are starting to ramp up their assaults. That means indiscriminate death and destruction.
J.B.Katz
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MT_Bear said:

Booray said:

Jacques Strap said:


I thought we wanted a strong Europe able and willing to lead on issues that impact them the most? I also imagine that European leaders are comforted in knowing we have their back. Its sad that we live to criticize our own, no matter what.

Biden's response to this has not been perfect but it has been good to this point. Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?
Yep. Biden's response has been fine - not perfect, but perfectly reasonable, measured, and effective without upping escalation too rapidly, and making sure that the US is not speaking for all of NATO (as has often felt the case before) but instead allowing each NATO nation to independently announce their own sanctions. For the love of god I wish Americans could just work together (thank god congress mostly is), rather than use such a tragic and potentially dangerous moment in history as just one more tool for division. This bull**** is why I affiliate with neither party.
Biden deserves praise on two fronts. First, he has demonstrated why we need alliances. Trump trashed all of our alliances, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership that would have set trade rules that hemmed in China's aggressive practices. Biden recognized their essential value.

Second, he has pulled our allies together in a very short time. Only someone with long experience in foreign policy -- someone who is well known by foreign leaders -- could have pulled that off.
Canada2017
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Booray said:

nein51 said:

History is ridiculously kind to Kennedy but historians tend not to be. He was a terrible President but it would have been way out of bounds to write that post assassination. He was young, charismatic, good looking, very well spoken in an era where TV was still relatively new. It's really easy to see why he was so popular (sort of similar to Barack Obama, IMO). I just think that post mortem no one really had the nerve to question his presidency and, as such, it is remembered fondly for what it looked like rather than what it actually was.

There are 3 years left so it's too early to call but I dont see history being nearly so kind to Biden who, at this point, is about like Carter only far less likeable.
The other thing you are missing is that on the most consequential event of his administration-the Cuban Missile Crisis-he got a huge win.Plus he gets credit for the space program. Obviously he did not execute it, but he articulated the vision.
The Cuban Missile Crisis was created ....( much like this current Ukrainian nightmare ) .....by the Soviet leader having an extremely low opinion of the US president . And there was ZERO real 'triumph' achieved. as Kennedy agreed to pull our missiles out of Turkey in exchange for the Soviets removing their missiles out of Cuba. But THAT part of the deal was kept secret for years.

BTW ......Kennedy ( like Bill Clinton ) was a total sexaholic . Even to the point of sleeping with women the FBI warned him were possibly communist agents or mafia girlfriends . Had affairs with at least a dozen women.....including a member of his wife's own staff.

Worse, by the time Kennedy became president he was a full on drug addict. Taking several shots a day from various doctors for his back pain and Chrohn's disease . He simply could not function without narcotics .

sombear
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J.B.Katz said:

MT_Bear said:

Booray said:

Jacques Strap said:


I thought we wanted a strong Europe able and willing to lead on issues that impact them the most? I also imagine that European leaders are comforted in knowing we have their back. Its sad that we live to criticize our own, no matter what.

Biden's response to this has not been perfect but it has been good to this point. Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?
Yep. Biden's response has been fine - not perfect, but perfectly reasonable, measured, and effective without upping escalation too rapidly, and making sure that the US is not speaking for all of NATO (as has often felt the case before) but instead allowing each NATO nation to independently announce their own sanctions. For the love of god I wish Americans could just work together (thank god congress mostly is), rather than use such a tragic and potentially dangerous moment in history as just one more tool for division. This bull**** is why I affiliate with neither party.
Biden deserves praise on two fronts. First, he has demonstrated why we need alliances. Trump trashed all of our alliances, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership that would have set trade rules that hemmed in China's aggressive practices. Biden recognized their essential value.

Second, he has pulled our allies together in a very short time. Only someone with long experience in foreign policy -- someone who is well known by foreign leaders -- could have pulled that off.
I do criticize sitting presidents during war or related conflicts, and I will not criticize Biden. But, to give him credit for "pulling together" allies is laughable. He's been following them from behind. Think about it, famously passive European nations have been more aggressive than Biden. I'm not even saying he's doing a bad job. It's more open Europe stepping up like never before and actually leading. It's fantastic.
nein51
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J.B.Katz said:

MT_Bear said:

Booray said:

Jacques Strap said:


I thought we wanted a strong Europe able and willing to lead on issues that impact them the most? I also imagine that European leaders are comforted in knowing we have their back. Its sad that we live to criticize our own, no matter what.

Biden's response to this has not been perfect but it has been good to this point. Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?
Yep. Biden's response has been fine - not perfect, but perfectly reasonable, measured, and effective without upping escalation too rapidly, and making sure that the US is not speaking for all of NATO (as has often felt the case before) but instead allowing each NATO nation to independently announce their own sanctions. For the love of god I wish Americans could just work together (thank god congress mostly is), rather than use such a tragic and potentially dangerous moment in history as just one more tool for division. This bull**** is why I affiliate with neither party.
Biden deserves praise on two fronts. First, he has demonstrated why we need alliances. Trump trashed all of our alliances, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership that would have set trade rules that hemmed in China's aggressive practices. Biden recognized their essential value.

Second, he has pulled our allies together in a very short time. Only someone with long experience in foreign policy -- someone who is well known by foreign leaders -- could have pulled that off.
The second part of this statement is so out of touch with reality it's not even remotely funny. He hasnt done a damned thing (and if you're counting that as good governance I might agree) to pull allies together. If my company set records and I was DFL and behind last year I get to claim the company had record results...but I wasnt the reason for it. That's EXACTLY what has gone on here.

What he has done a good job of and does deserve plenty of credit for is not being reactionary and immediately sending a whole bunch of American troops when there is little doubt plenty of other American leaders would have done so.
jupiter
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Redbrickbear
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Whiskey Pete
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J.B.Katz said:

MT_Bear said:

Booray said:

Jacques Strap said:


I thought we wanted a strong Europe able and willing to lead on issues that impact them the most? I also imagine that European leaders are comforted in knowing we have their back. Its sad that we live to criticize our own, no matter what.

Biden's response to this has not been perfect but it has been good to this point. Russia is the loser so far. What more do you want?
Yep. Biden's response has been fine - not perfect, but perfectly reasonable, measured, and effective without upping escalation too rapidly, and making sure that the US is not speaking for all of NATO (as has often felt the case before) but instead allowing each NATO nation to independently announce their own sanctions. For the love of god I wish Americans could just work together (thank god congress mostly is), rather than use such a tragic and potentially dangerous moment in history as just one more tool for division. This bull**** is why I affiliate with neither party.
Biden deserves praise on two fronts. First, he has demonstrated why we need alliances. Trump trashed all of our alliances, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership that would have set trade rules that hemmed in China's aggressive practices. Biden recognized their essential value.

Second, he has pulled our allies together in a very short time. Only someone with long experience in foreign policy -- someone who is well known by foreign leaders -- could have pulled that off.
LOL... That's some funny spin right there
Cobretti
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