Ukraine invaded by Putin

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FLBear5630
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In reply to bear2be2 • 11:29a, 3/11/22
bear2be2 said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
And that's how you get prolonged war.
History would suggest that appeasing and/or ignoring the threats and offenses of maniacal dictators also leads to prolonged war. So this isn't as simple as most are trying to make it.

If there's a prolonged war, it was both started and prolonged by one party. The western world's response/non-response to Putin won't make any difference if he is as determined as he appears to be to continue his imperial march.
Agree 100%.

The other aspect of avoiding a prolonged war is serving the Ukrainians up on a platter. If the war isn't prolonged, the Russians win easy. That is going to teach Putin not to mess with the west?

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Redbrickbear
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In reply to BearFan33 • 11:52a, 3/11/22
BearFan33 said:
Canada2017 said:
GrowlTowel said:
Cobretti said:
If it wasn't for Sheela Jackson Lee and AOC, she would be the stupidest person in government. Wow we are screwed.
True

And she is only one ( more ) stroke from the White House.

By far the dumbest, yet most ruthless VP in American history .
Not in my wildest dreams did I imagine she would be this bad as VP. She is in way over her head.
The classic case of the affirmative action hire and advancement.

"Affirmative action hire" can be a racist canard sometimes....but sometimes its also true that mediocre people are moved up though politics/government because they check off certain racial, ethnic, or gender boxes.

Kamala would seem to be a shining example of this.

She is not very intelligent, can not do public speaking well unless she has the speech memorized, is not a great legal mind (no major law school achievements to speak of and failed the California bar exam 1st time).

She was given prime political appoints and had her career guided/advanced by Willie Brown in the Bay area and in Sacramento.

And in some ways is not even that good a politics. She finished very low in the democratic voting for president and was never able to get majority African American support.



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HuMcK
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In reply to WacoKelly83 • 12:15p, 3/11/22
WacoKelly83 said:
I really haven't thought about this intently but why didn't the Ukranians have jets to begin with?

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GrowlTowel
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 12:39p, 3/11/22
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Spreading propaganda required a lot more effort before social media.


Watch how many blame us and how many on here agree.


We were funding them. Who else is there to blame?
What is wrong with funding biological research? Is that now off limits? Biological research is not Bio-Weapons. Is the US now supposed to not fund research? It may piss off Putin, so we need to stop? After all he has nuclear weapons. I guess we should only work within our borders, no working with allies or even China.


Lot of anger. Maybe pull the **** out of the labs before Russia invaded?
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to GrowlTowel • 12:53p, 3/11/22
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Spreading propaganda required a lot more effort before social media.


Watch how many blame us and how many on here agree.


We were funding them. Who else is there to blame?
What is wrong with funding biological research? Is that now off limits? Biological research is not Bio-Weapons. Is the US now supposed to not fund research? It may piss off Putin, so we need to stop? After all he has nuclear weapons. I guess we should only work within our borders, no working with allies or even China.


Lot of anger. Maybe pull the **** out of the labs before Russia invaded?
Maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded. I know that is a unique view, but it used to be that invading a sovereign nation was frowned upon and the one doing the invading should be the one being careful. My how times have changed.
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bear2be2
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 1:08p, 3/11/22
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Spreading propaganda required a lot more effort before social media.


Watch how many blame us and how many on here agree.


We were funding them. Who else is there to blame?
What is wrong with funding biological research? Is that now off limits? Biological research is not Bio-Weapons. Is the US now supposed to not fund research? It may piss off Putin, so we need to stop? After all he has nuclear weapons. I guess we should only work within our borders, no working with allies or even China.


Lot of anger. Maybe pull the **** out of the labs before Russia invaded?
Maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded. I know that is a unique view, but it used to be that invading a sovereign nation was frowned upon and the one doing the invading should be the one being careful. My how times have changed.
It is interesting how often this point is having to be made. Any response the rest of the world makes to Putin's unilateral decision to invade Ukraine is just that: a response to a madman's unnecessary World War II-era decision to invade a sovereign country.

This war and any further escalation of it is the doing of one party. That party alone is responsible for whatever happens from this point on.
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Wrecks Quan Dough
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In reply to bear2be2 • 1:26p, 3/11/22
bear2be2 said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Spreading propaganda required a lot more effort before social media.


Watch how many blame us and how many on here agree.


We were funding them. Who else is there to blame?
What is wrong with funding biological research? Is that now off limits? Biological research is not Bio-Weapons. Is the US now supposed to not fund research? It may piss off Putin, so we need to stop? After all he has nuclear weapons. I guess we should only work within our borders, no working with allies or even China.


Lot of anger. Maybe pull the **** out of the labs before Russia invaded?
Maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded. I know that is a unique view, but it used to be that invading a sovereign nation was frowned upon and the one doing the invading should be the one being careful. My how times have changed.
It is interesting how often this point is having to be made. Any response the rest of the world makes to Putin's unilateral decision to invade Ukraine is just that: a response to a madman's unnecessary World War II-era decision to invade a sovereign country.

This war and any further escalation of it is the doing of one party. That party alone is responsible for whatever happens from this point on.
Congratulations to Vlad the Invader. He seems to have united the right, left, and middle in this country on those points.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Wrecks Quan Dough • 2:22p, 3/11/22
Amal Shuq-Up said:
bear2be2 said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Spreading propaganda required a lot more effort before social media.


Watch how many blame us and how many on here agree.


We were funding them. Who else is there to blame?
What is wrong with funding biological research? Is that now off limits? Biological research is not Bio-Weapons. Is the US now supposed to not fund research? It may piss off Putin, so we need to stop? After all he has nuclear weapons. I guess we should only work within our borders, no working with allies or even China.


Lot of anger. Maybe pull the **** out of the labs before Russia invaded?
Maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded. I know that is a unique view, but it used to be that invading a sovereign nation was frowned upon and the one doing the invading should be the one being careful. My how times have changed.
It is interesting how often this point is having to be made. Any response the rest of the world makes to Putin's unilateral decision to invade Ukraine is just that: a response to a madman's unnecessary World War II-era decision to invade a sovereign country.

This war and any further escalation of it is the doing of one party. That party alone is responsible for whatever happens from this point on.
Congratulations to Vlad the Invader. He seems to have united the right, left, and middle in this country on those points.
And the Dems thought a Summer of Peace would do it. Antifa should have invaded a small nation.
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Jacques Strap
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4:09p, 3/11/22
I love the lean forward and whisper move.

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GrowlTowel
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 5:15p, 3/11/22
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Spreading propaganda required a lot more effort before social media.


Watch how many blame us and how many on here agree.


We were funding them. Who else is there to blame?
What is wrong with funding biological research? Is that now off limits? Biological research is not Bio-Weapons. Is the US now supposed to not fund research? It may piss off Putin, so we need to stop? After all he has nuclear weapons. I guess we should only work within our borders, no working with allies or even China.


Lot of anger. Maybe pull the **** out of the labs before Russia invaded?
Maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded. I know that is a unique view, but it used to be that invading a sovereign nation was frowned upon and the one doing the invading should be the one being careful. My how times have changed.
It can be both.
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Porteroso
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In reply to ATL Bear • 5:28p, 3/11/22
ATL Bear said:
I know people are passionate one way or the other about Trump. But is there any question as to how much better of a VP Mike Pence was than Harris?

There is no argument from any quarter on this issue.
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Canon
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In reply to Porteroso • 9:47p, 3/11/22
Porteroso said:
ATL Bear said:
I know people are passionate one way or the other about Trump. But is there any question as to how much better of a VP Mike Pence was than Harris?

There is no argument from any quarter on this issue.


But could he suck a golf ball through a garden hose like she can?
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jupiter
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11:16p, 3/11/22
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GrowlTowel
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In reply to jupiter • 7:23a, 3/12/22
jupiter said:


I don't understand this or any other seizure. Under what authority does any government have the right to take private property?
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Canon
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In reply to GrowlTowel • 7:41a, 3/12/22
GrowlTowel said:
jupiter said:


I don't understand this or any other seizure. Under what authority does any government have the right to take private property?


Oligarchs are only nominally private billionaires. They are wholly owned subsidiaries of the Russian state and Putin. Think of it as "Russia Inc." with the CEO being Putin. They are tied so closely to the state (having illegitimately taken over formerly state owned enterprises) that there's really no daylight between the two. So since they exert direct control of the state (non-democratically), seizing their assets are similar to seizing state assets of a terrorist state - which is what Russia effectively is.

Bankrupt the oligarchs and they use their ill-gotten power to back it off the current course. The Russian people don't have that power. The oligarchs do.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to bear2be2 • 10:19a, 3/12/22
bear2be2 said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Spreading propaganda required a lot more effort before social media.


Watch how many blame us and how many on here agree.


We were funding them. Who else is there to blame?
What is wrong with funding biological research? Is that now off limits? Biological research is not Bio-Weapons. Is the US now supposed to not fund research? It may piss off Putin, so we need to stop? After all he has nuclear weapons. I guess we should only work within our borders, no working with allies or even China.


Lot of anger. Maybe pull the **** out of the labs before Russia invaded?
Maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded. I know that is a unique view, but it used to be that invading a sovereign nation was frowned upon and the one doing the invading should be the one being careful. My how times have changed.
It is interesting how often this point is having to be made. Any response the rest of the world makes to Putin's unilateral decision to invade Ukraine is just that: a response to a madman's unnecessary World War II-era decision to invade a sovereign country.

This war and any further escalation of it is the doing of one party. That party alone is responsible for whatever happens from this point on.
I agree with Rep Mast (FL), NATO should be setting up a no-fly zone. I know it is not popular and many on here are not for it, but in my opinion he is right. Putin is not a rational actor and just because the West shows restraint does not mean he will or even acknowledges it. Something has to be done. I believe there is a stronger case for intervention in Ukraine than in other proxy wars. This is only a proxy war for us, the Russians are all in and are making no illusions that if they want another former Soviet Block nation they will take it.


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ukraine-no-fly-zone-worth-risks-putin-rep-brian-mast
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ATL Bear
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In reply to Canon • 11:21a, 3/12/22
Canon said:
GrowlTowel said:
jupiter said:


I don't understand this or any other seizure. Under what authority does any government have the right to take private property?


Oligarchs are only nominally private billionaires. They are wholly owned subsidiaries of the Russian state and Putin. Think of it as "Russia Inc." with the CEO being Putin. They are tied so closely to the state (having illegitimately taken over formerly state owned enterprises) that there's really no daylight between the two. So since they exert direct control of the state (non-democratically), seizing their assets are similar to seizing state assets of a terrorist state - which is what Russia effectively is.

Bankrupt the oligarchs and they use their ill-gotten power to back it off the current course. The Russian people don't have that power. The oligarchs do.
About as succinct as could be described. The Russian salary for President is about $300k per year. It has been reported (pre Ukraine crisis) that Putin is worth between $40-$200 Billion.
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Cobretti
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4:20p, 3/13/22
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Wrecks Quan Dough
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In reply to Cobretti • 4:54p, 3/13/22
Cobretti said:
I guess we will see if China Crap is as bad as Russia Crap.
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jupiter
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1:09a, 3/14/22
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Cobretti
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8:07a, 3/14/22
thread:

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FLBear5630
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In reply to Cobretti • 8:16a, 3/14/22
Cobretti said:
thread:

As long as the position is that the west will only step in if there are binding agreements or NATO membership, Russia and China will take the rest. They will not stop until stopped. Might as well give them a list of what Nations they can have and get it over with.
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Doc Holliday
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In reply to Cobretti • 8:19a, 3/14/22
Cobretti said:
Too many of us don't realize the deep hatred for the US because of our self appointed world "policing" and hypocrisy.

I'm not saying war is justified, but an alliance against the US and the US and west by China/Russia/Iran is a natural response to our own stupidity.
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Cobretti
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9:02a, 3/14/22
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Doc Holliday • 9:41a, 3/14/22
Doc Holliday said:
Cobretti said:
Too many of us don't realize the deep hatred for the US because of our self appointed world "policing" and hypocrisy.

I'm not saying war is justified, but an alliance against the US and the US and west by China/Russia/Iran is a natural response to our own stupidity.
Own stupidity or just not letting the China/Russia/Iran's of the world do what they want. Every issue I have seen the US involved with was someone taking away the choice of people to live their lives as they want. Has the US profited, of course that is capitalism. But Capitalism at least provides the opportunity for a boats to rise on the tide. What China/Russia/Iran is selling benefits few. How many people do you know that lived in Nations influenced by those Nations and liked it? How many immigrants do you see lined up to get into China? Russia? or Iran? Versus to get out.

Sorry, don't buy the stupidity and who asked us to be the world's police bit. I have yet to see a Nation that the US went in and didn't try to make better for the every day person, even the f-ups of Iraq and Afghanistan. Problem there was we tried too hard to help them, not exploit them. That is one reason I am so in favor of helping Ukraine, they want to be free and capitalist.


https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3032390/more-40-cent-hongkongers-want-emigrate-amid

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-09/if-china-is-on-the-rise-why-do-many-want-to-leave/10214604

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countries-migrants-want-to-move-to/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55357495

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-16/if-russians-hate-the-u-s-so-much-why-do-they-want-to-move-there-
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Mothra
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In reply to bear2be2 • 9:44a, 3/14/22
bear2be2 said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
And that's how you get prolonged war.
History would suggest that appeasing and/or ignoring the threats and offenses of maniacal dictators also leads to prolonged war. So this isn't as simple as most are trying to make it.

If there's a prolonged war, it was both started and prolonged by one party. The western world's response/non-response to Putin won't make any difference if he is as determined as he appears to be to continue his imperial march.
Honest question: Was it completely out of the realm of possibility for Biden to say: "Ukraine will never be a part of NATO?" If Putin doesn't want American bases, troops and missiles at his border, would it be "appeasement" to tell him what he wants to hear? Do we not do that with our enemies at times? Have we not done that with China and Taiwan? Or are we likewise "appeasing" China?

There is no legitimate excuse for Putin's invasion, but the idea that this entire conflict is on one person just isn't reality. Conflicts rarely are.
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Mothra
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 9:49a, 3/14/22
RMF5630 said:
bear2be2 said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
GrowlTowel said:
RMF5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Spreading propaganda required a lot more effort before social media.


Watch how many blame us and how many on here agree.


We were funding them. Who else is there to blame?
What is wrong with funding biological research? Is that now off limits? Biological research is not Bio-Weapons. Is the US now supposed to not fund research? It may piss off Putin, so we need to stop? After all he has nuclear weapons. I guess we should only work within our borders, no working with allies or even China.


Lot of anger. Maybe pull the **** out of the labs before Russia invaded?
Maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded. I know that is a unique view, but it used to be that invading a sovereign nation was frowned upon and the one doing the invading should be the one being careful. My how times have changed.
It is interesting how often this point is having to be made. Any response the rest of the world makes to Putin's unilateral decision to invade Ukraine is just that: a response to a madman's unnecessary World War II-era decision to invade a sovereign country.

This war and any further escalation of it is the doing of one party. That party alone is responsible for whatever happens from this point on.
I agree with Rep Mast (FL), NATO should be setting up a no-fly zone. I know it is not popular and many on here are not for it, but in my opinion he is right. Putin is not a rational actor and just because the West shows restraint does not mean he will or even acknowledges it. Something has to be done. I believe there is a stronger case for intervention in Ukraine than in other proxy wars. This is only a proxy war for us, the Russians are all in and are making no illusions that if they want another former Soviet Block nation they will take it.


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ukraine-no-fly-zone-worth-risks-putin-rep-brian-mast
Putin is not a rational actor, does not exercise restraint and you've gone on record as saying he would use nuclear weapons, so let's escalate and trigger him even further by shooting down Russian airplanes.

Makes sense only if you are looking forward to WWIII and nuclear winters.
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ShooterTX
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In reply to Mothra • 10:09a, 3/14/22
Mothra said:
bear2be2 said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
And that's how you get prolonged war.
History would suggest that appeasing and/or ignoring the threats and offenses of maniacal dictators also leads to prolonged war. So this isn't as simple as most are trying to make it.

If there's a prolonged war, it was both started and prolonged by one party. The western world's response/non-response to Putin won't make any difference if he is as determined as he appears to be to continue his imperial march.
Honest question: Was it completely out of the realm of possibility for Biden to say: "Ukraine will never be a part of NATO?" If Putin doesn't want American bases, troops and missiles at his border, would it be "appeasement" to tell him what he wants to hear? Do we not do that with our enemies at times? Have we not done that with China and Taiwan? Or are we likewise "appeasing" China?

There is no legitimate excuse for Putin's invasion, but the idea that this entire conflict is on one person just isn't reality. Conflicts rarely are.


If you are going to make such an offer, you do it at the negotiation table, not in the freaking media to the world!

You go into the private meeting with Putin, having declared that we will never give anything, and we are considering all out warfare. Then when you come out of the meeting with a ceasefire, it is seen as progress for both sides. Then after more meetings & negotiations, you come away with ceeding the Eastern provinces to Russia, and an agreement that Ukraine will never join NATO, but Russia also agrees to something.... THAT is how you negotiate.

You NEVER go into a major negotiation by publicly announcing that you will give into every demand being made by the other side. If you do that, then you have no room for compromise. You must set the stage so that both sides can claim some victories, and both sides can give some concessions.

What Biden is doing is to declare an unconditional surrender, before the war has even begun. Biden Inc. are giving a clinic on international weakness!
ShooterTX
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BearFan33
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10:35a, 3/14/22
Send Trump to the negotiation
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FLBear5630
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In reply to ShooterTX • 11:26a, 3/14/22
ShooterTX said:
Mothra said:
bear2be2 said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
And that's how you get prolonged war.
History would suggest that appeasing and/or ignoring the threats and offenses of maniacal dictators also leads to prolonged war. So this isn't as simple as most are trying to make it.

If there's a prolonged war, it was both started and prolonged by one party. The western world's response/non-response to Putin won't make any difference if he is as determined as he appears to be to continue his imperial march.
Honest question: Was it completely out of the realm of possibility for Biden to say: "Ukraine will never be a part of NATO?" If Putin doesn't want American bases, troops and missiles at his border, would it be "appeasement" to tell him what he wants to hear? Do we not do that with our enemies at times? Have we not done that with China and Taiwan? Or are we likewise "appeasing" China?

There is no legitimate excuse for Putin's invasion, but the idea that this entire conflict is on one person just isn't reality. Conflicts rarely are.


If you are going to make such an offer, you do it at the negotiation table, not in the freaking media to the world!

You go into the private meeting with Putin, having declared that we will never give anything, and we are considering all out warfare. Then when you come out of the meeting with a ceasefire, it is seen as progress for both sides. Then after more meetings & negotiations, you come away with ceeding the Eastern provinces to Russia, and an agreement that Ukraine will never join NATO, but Russia also agrees to something.... THAT is how you negotiate.

You NEVER go into a major negotiation by publicly announcing that you will give into every demand being made by the other side. If you do that, then you have no room for compromise. You must set the stage so that both sides can claim some victories, and both sides can give some concessions.

What Biden is doing is to declare an unconditional surrender, before the war has even begun. Biden Inc. are giving a clinic on international weakness!
THANK YOU! Saying troops are off the table and the minor incursion comment, before he did anything gave him the green light!!!!

Since when does the world HAVE to HAVE a binding agreement to protect a smaller country from invasion?? People act like unless there is a binding agreement, it is ok to take what they want.
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EatMoreSalmon
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 11:33a, 3/14/22
RMF5630 said:
ShooterTX said:
Mothra said:
bear2be2 said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
And that's how you get prolonged war.
History would suggest that appeasing and/or ignoring the threats and offenses of maniacal dictators also leads to prolonged war. So this isn't as simple as most are trying to make it.

If there's a prolonged war, it was both started and prolonged by one party. The western world's response/non-response to Putin won't make any difference if he is as determined as he appears to be to continue his imperial march.
Honest question: Was it completely out of the realm of possibility for Biden to say: "Ukraine will never be a part of NATO?" If Putin doesn't want American bases, troops and missiles at his border, would it be "appeasement" to tell him what he wants to hear? Do we not do that with our enemies at times? Have we not done that with China and Taiwan? Or are we likewise "appeasing" China?

There is no legitimate excuse for Putin's invasion, but the idea that this entire conflict is on one person just isn't reality. Conflicts rarely are.


If you are going to make such an offer, you do it at the negotiation table, not in the freaking media to the world!

You go into the private meeting with Putin, having declared that we will never give anything, and we are considering all out warfare. Then when you come out of the meeting with a ceasefire, it is seen as progress for both sides. Then after more meetings & negotiations, you come away with ceeding the Eastern provinces to Russia, and an agreement that Ukraine will never join NATO, but Russia also agrees to something.... THAT is how you negotiate.

You NEVER go into a major negotiation by publicly announcing that you will give into every demand being made by the other side. If you do that, then you have no room for compromise. You must set the stage so that both sides can claim some victories, and both sides can give some concessions.

What Biden is doing is to declare an unconditional surrender, before the war has even begun. Biden Inc. are giving a clinic on international weakness!
THANK YOU! Saying troops are off the table and the minor incursion comment, before he did anything gave him the green light!!!!

Since when does the world HAVE to HAVE a binding agreement to protect a smaller country from invasion?? People act like unless there is a binding agreement, it is ok to take what they want.
The UN was formed to stop just that sort of thing, and has failed miserably. Lack of will among all in the security council to stop this kind of thing.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to EatMoreSalmon • 11:51a, 3/14/22
EatMoreSalmon said:
RMF5630 said:
ShooterTX said:
Mothra said:
bear2be2 said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
And that's how you get prolonged war.
History would suggest that appeasing and/or ignoring the threats and offenses of maniacal dictators also leads to prolonged war. So this isn't as simple as most are trying to make it.

If there's a prolonged war, it was both started and prolonged by one party. The western world's response/non-response to Putin won't make any difference if he is as determined as he appears to be to continue his imperial march.
Honest question: Was it completely out of the realm of possibility for Biden to say: "Ukraine will never be a part of NATO?" If Putin doesn't want American bases, troops and missiles at his border, would it be "appeasement" to tell him what he wants to hear? Do we not do that with our enemies at times? Have we not done that with China and Taiwan? Or are we likewise "appeasing" China?

There is no legitimate excuse for Putin's invasion, but the idea that this entire conflict is on one person just isn't reality. Conflicts rarely are.


If you are going to make such an offer, you do it at the negotiation table, not in the freaking media to the world!

You go into the private meeting with Putin, having declared that we will never give anything, and we are considering all out warfare. Then when you come out of the meeting with a ceasefire, it is seen as progress for both sides. Then after more meetings & negotiations, you come away with ceeding the Eastern provinces to Russia, and an agreement that Ukraine will never join NATO, but Russia also agrees to something.... THAT is how you negotiate.

You NEVER go into a major negotiation by publicly announcing that you will give into every demand being made by the other side. If you do that, then you have no room for compromise. You must set the stage so that both sides can claim some victories, and both sides can give some concessions.

What Biden is doing is to declare an unconditional surrender, before the war has even begun. Biden Inc. are giving a clinic on international weakness!
THANK YOU! Saying troops are off the table and the minor incursion comment, before he did anything gave him the green light!!!!

Since when does the world HAVE to HAVE a binding agreement to protect a smaller country from invasion?? People act like unless there is a binding agreement, it is ok to take what they want.
The UN was formed to stop just that sort of thing, and has failed miserably. Lack of will among all in the security council to stop this kind of thing.
When two of the five, with veto power, are the ones looking to take other Nations you cannot expect the UN to be able to do anything.

What has failed is the nuclear triad. Two of the members have decided that nukes are hammers, not deterrents. We are on the sidelines for one reason, Putin is threatening nukes.

Let's be clear, this is not a policy disagreement, where we question the degree or amount of Ukraine Russia should take. We outright disagree with their actions and the ONLY reason the US and West is not doing something is nukes. China is now making same threat over Taiwan. All the people on here wanting to stay out have said that WW3 and nukes is why to stay clear. THAT IS A PROBLEM.
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Jacques Strap
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12:19p, 3/14/22
Reuters: As West shuns Moscow, officials say India eyes more cheap Russian oil

NEW DELHI, March 14 (Reuters) - India may take up a Russian offer to buy crude oil and other commodities at a discount, two Indian officials said, in a sign that Delhi wants to keep its key trading partner on board despite Western attempts to isolate Moscow through sanctions.

U.S. officials have said in recent weeks they would like India to distance itself from Russia as much as possible, while recognising its heavy reliance on Moscow for everything from arms and ammunitions to missiles and fighter jets.

India has not condemned the invasion of Ukraine and abstained from voting at the United Nations calling out Russia's aggression. Russia calls its actions in Ukraine a "special operation" to demilitarise and "denazify" the country.

One person within India's security apparatus said the West understood India's position, given that it needs to keep its armed forces well supplied amid simmering territorial disputes with China.
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Wrecks Quan Dough
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In reply to Jacques Strap • 12:52p, 3/14/22
Jacques Strap said:
Reuters: As West shuns Moscow, officials say India eyes more cheap Russian oil

NEW DELHI, March 14 (Reuters) - India may take up a Russian offer to buy crude oil and other commodities at a discount, two Indian officials said, in a sign that Delhi wants to keep its key trading partner on board despite Western attempts to isolate Moscow through sanctions.

U.S. officials have said in recent weeks they would like India to distance itself from Russia as much as possible, while recognising its heavy reliance on Moscow for everything from arms and ammunitions to missiles and fighter jets.

India has not condemned the invasion of Ukraine and abstained from voting at the United Nations calling out Russia's aggression. Russia calls its actions in Ukraine a "special operation" to demilitarise and "denazify" the country.

One person within India's security apparatus said the West understood India's position, given that it needs to keep its armed forces well supplied amid simmering territorial disputes with China.
In other words, Western sanctions hurt the Russian people, European people, and American people, but will not really accomplish their stated objectives. About par for the sanctions course.
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Mothra
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In reply to ShooterTX • 1:03p, 3/14/22
ShooterTX said:
Mothra said:
bear2be2 said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
And that's how you get prolonged war.
History would suggest that appeasing and/or ignoring the threats and offenses of maniacal dictators also leads to prolonged war. So this isn't as simple as most are trying to make it.

If there's a prolonged war, it was both started and prolonged by one party. The western world's response/non-response to Putin won't make any difference if he is as determined as he appears to be to continue his imperial march.
Honest question: Was it completely out of the realm of possibility for Biden to say: "Ukraine will never be a part of NATO?" If Putin doesn't want American bases, troops and missiles at his border, would it be "appeasement" to tell him what he wants to hear? Do we not do that with our enemies at times? Have we not done that with China and Taiwan? Or are we likewise "appeasing" China?

There is no legitimate excuse for Putin's invasion, but the idea that this entire conflict is on one person just isn't reality. Conflicts rarely are.


If you are going to make such an offer, you do it at the negotiation table, not in the freaking media to the world!

You go into the private meeting with Putin, having declared that we will never give anything, and we are considering all out warfare. Then when you come out of the meeting with a ceasefire, it is seen as progress for both sides. Then after more meetings & negotiations, you come away with ceeding the Eastern provinces to Russia, and an agreement that Ukraine will never join NATO, but Russia also agrees to something.... THAT is how you negotiate.

You NEVER go into a major negotiation by publicly announcing that you will give into every demand being made by the other side. If you do that, then you have no room for compromise. You must set the stage so that both sides can claim some victories, and both sides can give some concessions.

What Biden is doing is to declare an unconditional surrender, before the war has even begun. Biden Inc. are giving a clinic on international weakness!
I agree with that. Openly negotiating is not a good idea. But again, I am not sure ruling out Ukraine becoming a part of NATO is a big ask, especially if it will preserve peace. Like Russia, we wouldn't want Russian forces and bases on the other side of the Rio Grande.

Putin is a bad dude, no question. But sometimes we have to negotiate with our enemies to avoid a bigger conflict. Kennedy did it. Reagan did it. Bush did it. Yet, we have a neocon jughead and war monger on this thread that wants an all out war with Russia, potential nuclear consequences be damned. It's simply asinine.
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