Afghanistan What a tragedy!

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Robert Wilson
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In reply to ATL Bear • 7:24a, 8/16/21
ATL Bear said:
bear2be2 said:
ATL Bear said:
The question isn't about the right/wrong of the exit, but the poor planning of the actual departure. I have a friend at the Kabul airport right now. It's getting very real.

How do you depart in a way that ends differently? If the Afghan army is incapable of or uninterested in combatting the Taliban, how do you pull ever pull the troops in a way that doesn't end in disaster?
You draw down the military last. It's not that difficult. We clearly overestimated the Afghan Army's resolve.


This. We did the entire thing backasswards. Truly embarrassing and costly.
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Jacques Strap
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7:30a, 8/16/21
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PartyBear
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7:39a, 8/16/21
The military was already drawn down to the 2500 troop level prior to January of 21.
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HuMcK
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In reply to Canon • 7:44a, 8/16/21
Canon said:
HuMcK said:
That's extra rich coming from him. Taliban was already violating the terms of their "deal" with offensives before Trunp left office. They wanted us gone months ago, Trump literally criticized Biden for pushing the date from May to September, if anything the withdrawal would have been more chaotic and unorganized back then if that's possible. Extra irony is someone that admin had released from prison in 2018 is the presumptive next Taloban leader of Afghanistan.

It's not an accident that the deal they struck scheduled the handover during the next admin's term, they knew how this was always going to end no matter who was in office, especially after the large prisoner release.


Your relationship with reality is so tenuous, you might as well be posting about Hogwarts.

Again, dispute what I wrote or stfu. Support your conclusions with reasoning, if you are even capable.
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HuMcK
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In reply to PartyBear • 7:45a, 8/16/21
Sure, but if they acknowledge that then they can't blame it on Biden, so...
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Jacques Strap
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7:57a, 8/16/21












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ABC BEAR
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8:00a, 8/16/21
When you elect incompetent people to replace competent people, this is the result.
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sombear
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In reply to HuMcK • 8:11a, 8/16/21
HuMcK said:
That's extra rich coming from him. Taliban was already violating the terms of their "deal" with offensives before Trunp left office. They wanted us gone months ago, Trump literally criticized Biden for pushing the date from May to September, if anything the withdrawal would have been more chaotic and unorganized back then if that's possible. Extra irony is someone that admin had released from prison in 2018 is the presumptive next Taloban leader of Afghanistan.

It's not an accident that the deal they struck scheduled the handover during the next admin's term, they knew how this was always going to end no matter who was in office, especially after the large prisoner release.
I don't defend Trump much but putting this on him is ridiculous. You're guessing as to how he would have handled the withdrawal. But, we don't have to guess. All the reporting, even from the NYT, is that the Trump admin was keeping military there through the withdrawal and had specific plans in place if the Taliban would have interfered. Biden admin is solely responsible for abrupt military pullout before the withdrawal. And there is no good explanation for it. Not to mention, Biden had full control and could have done anything from stopped the withdrawal altogether, to delay, to designing every facet of a withdrawal.

As for putting this on the "next admin," you don't think Trump thought he was going to win? And, regardless, the criticism at the time was that it was too narrow a timeline. When he cut that deal in 2020, there was no way to withdrawal faster. And I do not recall anyone advocating for that.
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ATL Bear
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In reply to PartyBear • 8:20a, 8/16/21
PartyBear said:
The military was already drawn down to the 2500 troop level prior to January of 21.
2500 is a good number for the task of exit. The critical error was the premature handover of Bagram. That started after Biden's April announcement and was completed by July. The madness at the Kabul airport is proof of that blunder. I think there were also another 5000 NATO troops still operating with the 2500 before the Biden draw down.
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HuMcK
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In reply to sombear • 8:32a, 8/16/21
"All the reporting, even from the NYT, is that the Trump admin was keeping military there through the withdrawal and had specific plans in place if the Taliban would have interfered. Biden admin is solely responsible for abrupt military pullout before the withdrawal. And there is no good explanation for it. "

There is an explanation for it: the drawdown to 2500 was completed before Biden took office in January. There were 1000 still left when Kabul became surrounded on Sunday. Also keep in mind that the Taliban have been mounting successful offensives during this whole time period of negotiations, which is why I scoff at the "specific plans" in case of Taliban "interference", and the cities that fell in quick succession were under siege for months. Are y'all just going to pretend to not remember Trump raging on twitter that he wanted us out by last Christmas, and then he criticized Biden for pushing back from May to September? All this revisionist history is flat out lies. No one likes the optics, but this was never going to play out any other way, especially the way the stage had been set over the last year and a half.

"As for putting this on the "next admin," you don't think Trump thought he was going to win?"

It didn't matter whether he won or lost, only that any chaos in Afghanistan would not affect his chances the 2020 election. He would have had us rush to get out before the voting happened if he thought it was something he could tout as an accomplishment on the campaign trail, but they very specifically did not schedule it that way, even though winter is combat offseason and it probably would have gone smoother then. They knew this was coming, and Pompeo went on news shows to spout the same nonsense as Blinken did about the Afghan gov (which they had excluded from negotiations with the Taliban) holding it's own anyway, but i don't see much criticism of that narrative here.
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ATL Bear
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In reply to HuMcK • 8:45a, 8/16/21
HuMcK said:
"All the reporting, even from the NYT, is that the Trump admin was keeping military there through the withdrawal and had specific plans in place if the Taliban would have interfered. Biden admin is solely responsible for abrupt military pullout before the withdrawal. And there is no good explanation for it. "

There is an explanation for it: the drawdown to 2500 was completed before Biden took office in January. There were 1000 still left when Kabul became surrounded on Sunday. Also keep in mind that the Taliban have been mounting successful offensives during this whole time period of negotiations, which is why I scoff at the "specific plans" in case of Taliban "interference", and the cities that fell in quick succession were under siege for months. Are y'all just going to pretend to not remember Trump raging on twitter that he wanted us out by last Christmas, and then he criticized Biden for pushing back from May to September? All this revisionist history is flat out lies. No one likes the optics, but this was never going to play out any other way, especially the way the stage had been set over the last year and a half.

"As for putting this on the "next admin," you don't think Trump thought he was going to win?"

It didn't matter whether he won or lost, only that any chaos in Afghanistan would not affect his chances the 2020 election. He would have had us rush to get out before the voting happened if he thought it was something he could tout as an accomplishment on the campaign trail, but they very specifically did not schedule it that way, even though winter is combat offseason and it probably would have gone smoother then. They knew this was coming, and Pompeo went on news shows to spout the same nonsense as Blinken did about the Afghan gov (which they had excluded from negotiations with the Taliban) holding it's own anyway, but i don't see much criticism of that narrative here.
2500 troops is plenty when you have air superiority and a base to operate from. That advantage was given up. You also have the question of how much Taliban advances and Afghan Army surrenders were ignored in the final withdrawal strategy.
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Robert Wilson
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In reply to PartyBear • 8:49a, 8/16/21
PartyBear said:
The military was already drawn down to the 2500 troop level prior to January of 21.
Our process of going from 2500 to 0 was executed ... poorly. Let's just be understated about this.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to HuMcK • 8:50a, 8/16/21
HuMcK: "this was never going to play out any other way"

Very false. The whole thing could and should have been handled better. Look at the troop levels over the past year, and the lack of aggressive action by the Taliban until very recently. Here are the mistakes which changed everything:

1. Never tell the enemy when you are leaving. I mean seriously, remember years ago Facebook was warning people not to post when they were going on vacation, because that would tell burglars when they could rob their house? Same thing here. There was absolutely no reason for the Biden Administration to announce when they were leaving.

2. The Biden Administration refused to allow supply and maintenance of Afghan aircraft. This meant that transition from US air protection to Afghan responsibility meant going from credible deterrence to no real threat to the Taliban.

3. The Biden Administration made no plans of any kind for Afghan supporters who would need to leave the country to escape retaliation from the Taliban. The military units knew who they worked with, so an orderly transition moving civilians first was very easy to accomplish if they had just made the effort.

4. The Biden Administration made no overtures to other nations in the region, such as Pakistan and Iraq, to explain the US role in the region post-Afghanistan. This - however accidentally - sent the signal to the Taliban that the US would be abandoning the region, not just the theater.

With that said, the present effort to get as many civilians out as possible is an impressive bit of work, and someone high in the Biden Administration had to green-light the use of a lot of resources to make that effort.

Also, the Biden Administration has been smart enough to not reveal the units sent to protect the airport, even though that task is very difficult, since the forces sent have to be able to be a credible threat yet avoid turning the situation into a firefight.

Finally, during this time the best thing Democrats and Republicans can and should do, is cooperate to protect civilians and get our troops out safely.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
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HuMcK
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 8:55a, 8/16/21
"Finally, during this time the best thing Democrats and Republicans can and should do, is cooperate to protect civilians and get our troops out safely."

+1
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Whiskey Pete
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In reply to HuMcK • 9:05a, 8/16/21
HuMcK said:
That's extra rich coming from him. Taliban was already violating the terms of their "deal" with offensives before Trunp left office. They wanted us gone months ago, Trump literally criticized Biden for pushing the date from May to September, if anything the withdrawal would have been more chaotic and unorganized back then if that's possible. Extra irony is someone that admin had released from prison in 2018 is the presumptive next Taloban leader of Afghanistan.

It's not an accident that the deal they struck scheduled the handover during the next admin's term, they knew how this was always going to end no matter who was in office, especially after the large prisoner release.
time to put the blame on biden.

I get your sport it mental gymnastics, but you're no gold medal winner.
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Whiskey Pete
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In reply to HuMcK • 9:12a, 8/16/21
HuMcK said:
Canon said:
HuMcK said:
That's extra rich coming from him. Taliban was already violating the terms of their "deal" with offensives before Trunp left office. They wanted us gone months ago, Trump literally criticized Biden for pushing the date from May to September, if anything the withdrawal would have been more chaotic and unorganized back then if that's possible. Extra irony is someone that admin had released from prison in 2018 is the presumptive next Taloban leader of Afghanistan.

It's not an accident that the deal they struck scheduled the handover during the next admin's term, they knew how this was always going to end no matter who was in office, especially after the large prisoner release.


Your relationship with reality is so tenuous, you might as well be posting about Hogwarts.

Again, dispute what I wrote or stfu. Support your conclusions with reasoning, if you are even capable.
So, Trump roped-a-dope by pushing it to the next admin? Yeah, okay.... dope is about right.

biden spent months undoing Trump actions, but followed through with this one?

Can't blame Trump on this one, though you'll try.... this 100% on biden

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HuMcK
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In reply to Whiskey Pete • 9:23a, 8/16/21
I blame W. Trump and Biden were both right that we needed to leave. But, same thing I told Canon, if you can dispute the factual assertions then go ahead, otherwise stfu with your childish whining.
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Whiskey Pete
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In reply to HuMcK • 9:24a, 8/16/21
HuMcK said:
I blame W. Trump and Biden were both right that we needed to leave. But, same thing I told Canon, if you can dispute the factual assertions then go ahead, otherwise stfu with your childish whining.
Keep up with the mental gymnastics.... biden handled this very very poorly, he's awol at camp david...

this is 100% on biden. plain and simple.
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HuMcK
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In reply to Whiskey Pete • 9:25a, 8/16/21
I'm sure that from behind your red MAGA glasses that makes some sense.
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Bexar Pitts
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In reply to ATL Bear • 9:30a, 8/16/21
ATL Bear said:
Just FYI, my friend was able to get on a transport to Bulgaria. Interested to hear the full story when he's back stateside.
Thanks for update..Glad to hear he's out.
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Jacques Strap
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9:35a, 8/16/21


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Forest Bueller_bf
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In reply to Waco1947 • 9:37a, 8/16/21
Waco1947 said:
4th and Inches said:
HuMcK said:
Almost half of the current caseload comes from 2 large states with GOP governors who take pride in fighting Biden on every issue, including COVID, just because, so I mostly blame Abbott and DeSantis for their actions. Biden takes the issue seriously and is trying to get as many people vaccinated as possible so we can finally be done with this stupid virus. In contrast, Trump got blamed for COVID because his dumb ass was on camera suggesting to inject disinfectants and shine UV lights in people's bodies, among other embarrassing episodes like e.g. the time he got sick enough to be hospitalized because of his own carelessness.
if you mean texas, you better have a massive Asterix next to it. Bidens border policy has a big role in the surge in Texas, especially since they are shipping the unvaxed immigrants to other major cities in Texas. Good news is that at least part of Bidens policy got blasted out of court, Trumps wait in Mexico policy got re-instated.

Pushing more lies about the disinfectant comment..

Cant get past your TDS, sad..

Science says we will never be done with this stupid virus. We will beat this one like we beat the common cold and the flu..
Biden's border policy results in Covid's spread? What's the data?
7500 infected immigrants, more now, being spread out all over Texas to Dallas, Houston, Austin and others. over 1500 in one week.

McAllen and Larado declaring a disaster State of Emergency.

You are just putting on here here. You are not this stupid.

When people are allowed unchecked to cross a border and are not isolated when they enter, they will spread whatever they have. It's not any individual immigrants fault, these people are crammed in like sardines and spread germs freely to each other. Then they spread it to wherever they are located.
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Jacques Strap
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9:41a, 8/16/21
US soldiers on the ground are in a very difficult situation dealing with thousands of desperate, scared, and angry locals at an unsecure civilian airport.

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Robert Wilson
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In reply to Forest Bueller_bf • 9:44a, 8/16/21
Forest Bueller_bf said:



You are just putting on here here. You are not this stupid.
That's just unfair. I don't think you've read enough of 47's posts.
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Forest Bueller_bf
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In reply to ATL Bear • 9:45a, 8/16/21
ATL Bear said:
PartyBear said:
The military was already drawn down to the 2500 troop level prior to January of 21.
2500 is a good number for the task of exit. The critical error was the premature handover of Bagram. That started after Biden's April announcement and was completed by July. The madness at the Kabul airport is proof of that blunder. I think there were also another 5000 NATO troops still operating with the 2500 before the Biden draw down.
Lets listen to someone here who has an idea of what they are talking about.

It's not that we are withdrawing. That was going to have to happen eventually.

It is the poor manner which it took place that is the problem. Biden doesn't have the mental capacity to fully grasp what it happening either, that doesn't help.
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trey3216
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In reply to Jacques Strap • 9:53a, 8/16/21
Jacques Strap said:
One explanation which makes some sense.

TL; DR

The Afgan military was modeled after the US military which relies heavily on air support for battle and logistical supply, med evac, etc. Once the US pulled out the air support was gone and it was game over.

NBC Without U.S. contractors, the Afghan military will lose its main advantage over the Taliban air power

The loss of U.S. contractors could trigger a game-changing shift in the military balance between the Taliban and the Afghan government.

June 6, 2021, 5:00 AM CDT
By Dan De Luce

Quote:
WASHINGTON Afghan government forces could lose the single most important military advantage they have over the Taliban air power when private contractors and U.S. troops leave the country in coming weeks.

The Afghan security forces rely heavily on U.S.-funded contractors to repair and maintain their fleet of aircraft and armored vehicles and a whole array of other equipment. But the roughly 18,000 contractors are due to depart within weeks, along with most of the U.S. military contingent, as part of Washington's agreement with the Taliban to withdraw all "foreign" troops.
WSJ: How the Taliban Overran the Afghan Army, Built by the U.S. Over 20 Years

Afghanistan's military was molded to match American operations and collapsed without U.S. air support and intelligence

KABULThe Afghan government outpost in Imam Sahib, a district of northern Kunduz province, held out for two months after being surrounded by the Taliban. At first, elite commando units would come once a week on a resupply run. Then, these runs became more scarce, as did the supplies.

"In the last days, there was no food, no water and no weapons," said trooper Taj Mohammad, 38. Fleeing in one armored personnel carrier and one Ford Ranger, the remaining men finally made a run to the relative safety of the provincial capital, which collapsed weeks later. They left behind another 11 APCs to the Taliban.
As district after district fell in this summer's Taliban offensive, without much visible support from the Afghan national army and police forces, other soldiers simply made the calculation that it wasn't worth fighting anymoreespecially if the Taliban offered them safe passage home, as they usually did.

"Everyone just surrendered their guns and ran away," said Rahimullah, a 25-year soldier who joined the army a year ago and served in the Shahr-e-Bozorg district of northeastern Badakhshan province. "We didn't receive any help from the central government, and so the district fell without any fighting."

Afghanistan's national army and police forces, theoretically numbering 350,000 men and trained and equipped at huge cost by the U.S. and Western allies, were supposed to be a powerful deterrent to the Taliban. That is one reason why President Biden, when he announced in April his decision to withdraw all American forces from Afghanistan, expressed confidence in the Afghan military's ability to hold ground.

There's also a boatload of their military that are still Taliban sympathizers or relatives of Taliban fighters. They're not going to kill their own just to keep the ruse.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
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HuMcK
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In reply to trey3216 • 9:56a, 8/16/21
Notice how a solid chunk of the people swamping runways are military aged males.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to HuMcK • 10:00a, 8/16/21
HuMcK said:
Notice how a solid chunk of the people swamping runways are military aged males.
They're not helping their chances of getting out by doing that
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
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trey3216
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In reply to HuMcK • 10:00a, 8/16/21
HuMcK said:
Notice how a solid chunk of the people swamping runways are military aged males.
A lot of those are intel folks that worked directly for the US Military and are on the kill list if they don't leave the country. I can't say I blame them. Those men actually hate the Taliban and fought against them and worked with the American/British military.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
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Jack Bauer
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10:18a, 8/16/21
As Afghanistan fell to the Taliban, our VP was on it...

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Jacques Strap
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10:20a, 8/16/21
Al Jazeera Reports Heavy Shooting in Kabul Intl Airport - Bloomberg News








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LIB,MR BEARS
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In reply to trey3216 • 10:20a, 8/16/21
trey3216 said:
HuMcK said:
Notice how a solid chunk of the people swamping runways are military aged males.
A lot of those are intel folks that worked directly for the US Military and are on the kill list if they don't leave the country. I can't say I blame them. Those men actually hate the Taliban and fought against them and worked with the American/British military.
I fully agree with this but, I'm willing to bet, there are some Taliban mixed in with them that will try and sneak through. I hope the screening process is a bit better than what we have at our southern border.
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Jack Bauer
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10:26a, 8/16/21
The Left: How can we blame the Governor of a state with 800k people for Afghanistan...

The Atlantic: Hold my beer, I'm on it.

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ATL Bear
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In reply to trey3216 • 10:31a, 8/16/21
trey3216 said:
HuMcK said:
Notice how a solid chunk of the people swamping runways are military aged males.
A lot of those are intel folks that worked directly for the US Military and are on the kill list if they don't leave the country. I can't say I blame them. Those men actually hate the Taliban and fought against them and worked with the American/British military.
Many are likely translators and support personnel who embedded with the US and foreign military, contractors, law enforcement and diplomatic teams. The Taliban are likely not to be discerning as to who are traitors to their cause. Could get really ugly and create a humanitarian crisis as they may expel thousands beyond the reprisals.
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Jacques Strap
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10:46a, 8/16/21
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