D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic.

---

Which with very few exceptions they did.

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I know this

For all the noise, COVID is a virus, and we know quite a lot about viruses, including coronaviruses.

We have handled prior viruses in sound, rational ways. Identify and immunize the at-risk population, find the most effective treatments for those who get the virus, and make sure containment is focused on the demographics most at risk.

Lockdowns, mandatory mask mandates and telling people they cannot go to church, school or work have always been extreme measures that made no sense for what we know. Silencing doctors and nurses who had direct experience working with COVID patients also made no sense.

Some of us said that from the beginning, and the fear mongers are pretending the government and profiteers did not lie.

The worst damage is that when we next face a medical crisis, the public will remember the lies and not trust the government, even if this time there is reason to do so.

---

You substitute your own wishes for real history. The goal has always been to immunize as many as possible, and the means have been far more draconian at times in our past. Focusing on particular demographic groups is ineffective as well as discriminatory, and it's one of the few things that provoked legitimate wrath from skeptics when it was tried.

---

Vaccinate, not immunize. One of the great failings of the vaccine is a lack of immunity it bestows. And it isn't discriminatory or draconian to target the most vulnerable. We do it with all types of medical and social strategies.

---

That's just not true, or it least it wasn't until Omicron. Vaccines often need updating. These have been hugely successful. But we've been over all that before.

---

Success depends upon the horizon of evaluation. This is why vaccine trials and studies take years. Why Delta and now Omicron are overcoming the vaccine is that we are relying upon lab created mRNA strands that aren't naturally adaptive like human mRNA. Therefore every new mutation requires an updated strand (the boosters). But we aren't evaluating each new form of mRNA we might insert, and we're one year into actual human trials. As any vaccine activates your immune system, your natural defenses are heightened early but wear off. That's as much of a contributor as the efficacy of the mRNA effect. It's why the goal post moved to reduction of severe outcome and not immunity. I know we've been through this before, but I recommend studying how the vaccine works and how SARS-CoV-2 destroys cells. That's why I believe treatments, which can operate better in a real time basis are the real answer not vaccines with this virus, at least for the vast majority of the population.

---

I'm not sure what you mean about updated mRNA strands. There is work being done on an updated vaccine, but the existing boosters are nothing but a smaller dose of the original. As for heightened immune defenses wearing off, that's by no means peculiar to the Covid vaccine. Flu vaccines do the same thing.

The goal is always to have the most effective vaccine that we can, but 50% effectiveness was the minimum standard. We've far exceeded that.

I'm all for treatments (if they're not bogus), but monoclonal antibodies are less flexible and more difficult to mass-produce than the vaccines. They also take time and expertise to administer, which ties up resources even in the outpatient setting. And even the most perfect treatment does next to nothing to slow transmission since it's only applied after the fact. For something as transmissible as Covid, the idea of treatments as a main line of defense is a pipe dream.

---

The pipe dream became mRNA vaccines as a solution for a highly transmissible mutative virus like COVID. It is not simply coincidental that infection and even death has maintained its path while vaccination is at its highest points.

I mention new mRNA strand requirement because current ones are failing with Delta and Omicron because they don't provide cellular instructions to address a mutated spike protein from new variants. Think of it as an ineffective monoclonal antibody. They will have to be adjusted.

As this is a virus that is 99% defeatable through our natural immune system and symptom treatment, treatment is the way forward. We don't worry about infection if we're confident we can treat or heal ourselves back to health. This literally is the argument you make about vaccines now. It's "not as severe", with severe being hospitalization or worse. Whether you think it's a vaccine or a medicine in your early treatment, it doesn't matter. It also ignores the reality that treatments are part of vaccinated individuals, especially in high risk groups, routine of keeping their COVID "non severe".

---

It was still better than 50% against Delta. Think of it as last year's flu vaccine, but twice as good.

99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%.

---

A lot of assumptions in that 50% with Delta and Omicron. But fortunately the 1% don't show up all at once.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic.

---

Which with very few exceptions they did.

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic.

---

Which with very few exceptions they did.

---

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic.

---

Which with very few exceptions they did.

---

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

---

Not a very apt reference in light of how well the legal system performed. What mistakes it made were hardly fatal.

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic.

---

Which with very few exceptions they did.

---

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

---

Not a very apt reference in light of how well the legal system performed. What mistakes it made were hardly fatal.

---

"Well, you didn't DIE, did you?" isn't exactly a solid defense for inappropriate government actions.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic.

---

Which with very few exceptions they did.

---

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

---

Not a very apt reference in light of how well the legal system performed. What mistakes it made were hardly fatal.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I know this

For all the noise, COVID is a virus, and we know quite a lot about viruses, including coronaviruses.

We have handled prior viruses in sound, rational ways. Identify and immunize the at-risk population, find the most effective treatments for those who get the virus, and make sure containment is focused on the demographics most at risk.

Lockdowns, mandatory mask mandates and telling people they cannot go to church, school or work have always been extreme measures that made no sense for what we know. Silencing doctors and nurses who had direct experience working with COVID patients also made no sense.

Some of us said that from the beginning, and the fear mongers are pretending the government and profiteers did not lie.

The worst damage is that when we next face a medical crisis, the public will remember the lies and not trust the government, even if this time there is reason to do so.

---

You substitute your own wishes for real history. The goal has always been to immunize as many as possible, and the means have been far more draconian at times in our past. Focusing on particular demographic groups is ineffective as well as discriminatory, and it's one of the few things that provoked legitimate wrath from skeptics when it was tried.

---

Vaccinate, not immunize. One of the great failings of the vaccine is a lack of immunity it bestows. And it isn't discriminatory or draconian to target the most vulnerable. We do it with all types of medical and social strategies.

---

That's just not true, or it least it wasn't until Omicron. Vaccines often need updating. These have been hugely successful. But we've been over all that before.

---

Success depends upon the horizon of evaluation. This is why vaccine trials and studies take years. Why Delta and now Omicron are overcoming the vaccine is that we are relying upon lab created mRNA strands that aren't naturally adaptive like human mRNA. Therefore every new mutation requires an updated strand (the boosters). But we aren't evaluating each new form of mRNA we might insert, and we're one year into actual human trials. As any vaccine activates your immune system, your natural defenses are heightened early but wear off. That's as much of a contributor as the efficacy of the mRNA effect. It's why the goal post moved to reduction of severe outcome and not immunity. I know we've been through this before, but I recommend studying how the vaccine works and how SARS-CoV-2 destroys cells. That's why I believe treatments, which can operate better in a real time basis are the real answer not vaccines with this virus, at least for the vast majority of the population.

---

I'm not sure what you mean about updated mRNA strands. There is work being done on an updated vaccine, but the existing boosters are nothing but a smaller dose of the original. As for heightened immune defenses wearing off, that's by no means peculiar to the Covid vaccine. Flu vaccines do the same thing.

The goal is always to have the most effective vaccine that we can, but 50% effectiveness was the minimum standard. We've far exceeded that.

I'm all for treatments (if they're not bogus), but monoclonal antibodies are less flexible and more difficult to mass-produce than the vaccines. They also take time and expertise to administer, which ties up resources even in the outpatient setting. And even the most perfect treatment does next to nothing to slow transmission since it's only applied after the fact. For something as transmissible as Covid, the idea of treatments as a main line of defense is a pipe dream.

---

The pipe dream became mRNA vaccines as a solution for a highly transmissible mutative virus like COVID. It is not simply coincidental that infection and even death has maintained its path while vaccination is at its highest points.

I mention new mRNA strand requirement because current ones are failing with Delta and Omicron because they don't provide cellular instructions to address a mutated spike protein from new variants. Think of it as an ineffective monoclonal antibody. They will have to be adjusted.

As this is a virus that is 99% defeatable through our natural immune system and symptom treatment, treatment is the way forward. We don't worry about infection if we're confident we can treat or heal ourselves back to health. This literally is the argument you make about vaccines now. It's "not as severe", with severe being hospitalization or worse. Whether you think it's a vaccine or a medicine in your early treatment, it doesn't matter. It also ignores the reality that treatments are part of vaccinated individuals, especially in high risk groups, routine of keeping their COVID "non severe".

---

It was still better than 50% against Delta. Think of it as last year's flu vaccine, but twice as good.

99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%.

---

A lot of assumptions in that 50% with Delta and Omicron. But fortunately the 1% don't show up all at once.

---

They show up more than fast enough.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/covid-cases-hospitals-overwhelmed-crisis-51642170882

---

Former US President Barack Obama threatening to remove his podcasts from Spotify to pressure the company to take further action to censor Joe Rogan’s COVID podcasts. Obama hosted a birthday bash with hundreds of unmasked celebrities six months prior.https://t.co/l1YpW13Yaf

— Michael P Senger (@MichaelPSenger) February 4, 2022

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

And this is why you shouldn't ever let unaccountable government employees dictate policy. Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic. This is not China. Many of our politicians seem to have forgotten this.

On the other hand we have those who deny basic facts because they don't like the conclusions that others draw from them.

(1) Vaccines work against COVID! (Yes, they work incredibly well).

(2) If we force everyone to be vaccinated and many fewer people will die. (True, without a doubt).

(3) Therefore, we should force people to be vaccinated.(Absolutely NOT).

You don't have to deny (1) and (2) to reject (3).

---

My concern isn't that vaccines can't be effective. My concern is have we glommed on to a solution path in disregard for potentially better solutions? Is the force multiplier of a behemoth, inflexible, not great at solving complex problems government actually sacrificing lives due to the blinders of a vaccination strategy? When we lost the benefit of infection containment, which no one can deny was THE objective to stop/slow COVID via vaccines before they were developed, we had to face new realities of the sickness. It hyper spreads and hyper mutates in the vaxxed and unvaxxed alike. This is a unique challenge, and frankly the fact we aren't farther along with treatment and treatment development has to be concerning looking at macro trends.

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

And this is why you shouldn't ever let unaccountable government employees dictate policy. Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic. This is not China. Many of our politicians seem to have forgotten this.

On the other hand we have those who deny basic facts because they don't like the conclusions that others draw from them.

(1) Vaccines work against COVID! (Yes, they work incredibly well).

(2) If we force everyone to be vaccinated and many fewer people will die. (True, without a doubt).

(3) Therefore, we should force people to be vaccinated.(Absolutely NOT).

You don't have to deny (1) and (2) to reject (3).

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I know this

For all the noise, COVID is a virus, and we know quite a lot about viruses, including coronaviruses.

We have handled prior viruses in sound, rational ways. Identify and immunize the at-risk population, find the most effective treatments for those who get the virus, and make sure containment is focused on the demographics most at risk.

Lockdowns, mandatory mask mandates and telling people they cannot go to church, school or work have always been extreme measures that made no sense for what we know. Silencing doctors and nurses who had direct experience working with COVID patients also made no sense.

Some of us said that from the beginning, and the fear mongers are pretending the government and profiteers did not lie.

The worst damage is that when we next face a medical crisis, the public will remember the lies and not trust the government, even if this time there is reason to do so.

---

You substitute your own wishes for real history. The goal has always been to immunize as many as possible, and the means have been far more draconian at times in our past. Focusing on particular demographic groups is ineffective as well as discriminatory, and it's one of the few things that provoked legitimate wrath from skeptics when it was tried.

---

Vaccinate, not immunize. One of the great failings of the vaccine is a lack of immunity it bestows. And it isn't discriminatory or draconian to target the most vulnerable. We do it with all types of medical and social strategies.

---

That's just not true, or it least it wasn't until Omicron. Vaccines often need updating. These have been hugely successful. But we've been over all that before.

---

Success depends upon the horizon of evaluation. This is why vaccine trials and studies take years. Why Delta and now Omicron are overcoming the vaccine is that we are relying upon lab created mRNA strands that aren't naturally adaptive like human mRNA. Therefore every new mutation requires an updated strand (the boosters). But we aren't evaluating each new form of mRNA we might insert, and we're one year into actual human trials. As any vaccine activates your immune system, your natural defenses are heightened early but wear off. That's as much of a contributor as the efficacy of the mRNA effect. It's why the goal post moved to reduction of severe outcome and not immunity. I know we've been through this before, but I recommend studying how the vaccine works and how SARS-CoV-2 destroys cells. That's why I believe treatments, which can operate better in a real time basis are the real answer not vaccines with this virus, at least for the vast majority of the population.

---

I'm not sure what you mean about updated mRNA strands. There is work being done on an updated vaccine, but the existing boosters are nothing but a smaller dose of the original. As for heightened immune defenses wearing off, that's by no means peculiar to the Covid vaccine. Flu vaccines do the same thing.

The goal is always to have the most effective vaccine that we can, but 50% effectiveness was the minimum standard. We've far exceeded that.

I'm all for treatments (if they're not bogus), but monoclonal antibodies are less flexible and more difficult to mass-produce than the vaccines. They also take time and expertise to administer, which ties up resources even in the outpatient setting. And even the most perfect treatment does next to nothing to slow transmission since it's only applied after the fact. For something as transmissible as Covid, the idea of treatments as a main line of defense is a pipe dream.

---

The pipe dream became mRNA vaccines as a solution for a highly transmissible mutative virus like COVID. It is not simply coincidental that infection and even death has maintained its path while vaccination is at its highest points.

I mention new mRNA strand requirement because current ones are failing with Delta and Omicron because they don't provide cellular instructions to address a mutated spike protein from new variants. Think of it as an ineffective monoclonal antibody. They will have to be adjusted.

As this is a virus that is 99% defeatable through our natural immune system and symptom treatment, treatment is the way forward. We don't worry about infection if we're confident we can treat or heal ourselves back to health. This literally is the argument you make about vaccines now. It's "not as severe", with severe being hospitalization or worse. Whether you think it's a vaccine or a medicine in your early treatment, it doesn't matter. It also ignores the reality that treatments are part of vaccinated individuals, especially in high risk groups, routine of keeping their COVID "non severe".

---

It was still better than 50% against Delta. Think of it as last year's flu vaccine, but twice as good.

99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%.

---

A lot of assumptions in that 50% with Delta and Omicron. But fortunately the 1% don't show up all at once.

---

They show up more than fast enough.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/covid-cases-hospitals-overwhelmed-crisis-51642170882

---

Yes, that's, um, horrific…

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam: "The goal has always been to immunize as many as possible"

Your goal perhaps, but not Medicine's goal. Herd Immunity has always been the goal of virus experts.

And no, I am not 'substituting' my views, simply reminding you what doctors prior to 2019 said, and will say in future.

It's not that vaccines are a bad idea, it's that so much done, and so much of the way things were forced on people, with so much unnecessary harm, could and should have been different.

---

And you don't get herd immunity just by focusing on the most vulnerable. The whole point of herd immunity is to protect them from disease transmitted by the less vulnerable.

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam: "The goal has always been to immunize as many as possible"

Your goal perhaps, but not Medicine's goal. Herd Immunity has always been the goal of virus experts.

And no, I am not 'substituting' my views, simply reminding you what doctors prior to 2019 said, and will say in future.

It's not that vaccines are a bad idea, it's that so much done, and so much of the way things were forced on people, with so much unnecessary harm, could and should have been different.

---

And you don't get herd immunity just by focusing on the most vulnerable. The whole point of herd immunity is to protect them from disease transmitted by the less vulnerable.

---

Actually, that's exactly how we should have done it. Vaccinate the vulnerable, and let those for whom CV will not be serious disease catch it and be treated with therapeutics.

That would have given us stronger and longer immunity than the vaccines, which have diminishing marginal benefit with each boost and ultimately leave the vaxxed more likely to be infected than the unvaxxed or naturally immune.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam: "The goal has always been to immunize as many as possible"

Your goal perhaps, but not Medicine's goal. Herd Immunity has always been the goal of virus experts.

And no, I am not 'substituting' my views, simply reminding you what doctors prior to 2019 said, and will say in future.

It's not that vaccines are a bad idea, it's that so much done, and so much of the way things were forced on people, with so much unnecessary harm, could and should have been different.

---

And you don't get herd immunity just by focusing on the most vulnerable. The whole point of herd immunity is to protect them from disease transmitted by the less vulnerable.

---

Actually, that's exactly how we should have done it. Vaccinate the vulnerable, and let those for whom CV will not be serious disease catch it and be treated with therapeutics.

That would have given us stronger and longer immunity than the vaccines, which have diminishing marginal benefit with each boost and ultimately leave the vaxxed more likely to be infected than the unvaxxed or naturally immune.

---

According to "evidence" which you've repeatedly proven yourself unable to read and comprehend. In other words it don't say what you done thunk it said.

---

Natural Immunity.🚨

Johns Hopkins finds 99% (!) of people with Covid prior infections have antibodies.

Plus: Natural Immunity did not decline *at all* after 650 days! Also: 55% of *unconfirmed* Covid cases have antibodies.

This is what Herd Immunity looks like. It's *over.*🔻 pic.twitter.com/PNf6MLv3F7

— Kyle Becker 🚚🚚🚚 (@kylenabecker) February 4, 2022

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

And this is why you shouldn't ever let unaccountable government employees dictate policy. Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic. This is not China. Many of our politicians seem to have forgotten this.

On the other hand we have those who deny basic facts because they don't like the conclusions that others draw from them.

(1) Vaccines work against COVID! (Yes, they work incredibly well).

(2) If we force everyone to be vaccinated and many fewer people will die. (True, without a doubt).

(3) Therefore, we should force people to be vaccinated.(Absolutely NOT).

You don't have to deny (1) and (2) to reject (3).

---

My concern isn't that vaccines can't be effective. My concern is have we glommed on to a solution path in disregard for potentially better solutions? Is the force multiplier of a behemoth, inflexible, not great at solving complex problems government actually sacrificing lives due to the blinders of a vaccination strategy? When we lost the benefit of infection containment, which no one can deny was THE objective to stop/slow COVID via vaccines before they were developed, we had to face new realities of the sickness. It hyper spreads and hyper mutates in the vaxxed and unvaxxed alike. This is a unique challenge, and frankly the fact we aren't farther along with treatment and treatment development has to be concerning looking at macro trends.

---

Vaccines were not the only medical intervention the government funded through Operation Warp Speed (ever hear of monoclonal antibody treatments?), but I do seem to recall that the new administration kind of shut down the program. (Would have to double check to be sure).

---

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

---

And this is why you shouldn't ever let unaccountable government employees dictate policy. Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic. This is not China. Many of our politicians seem to have forgotten this.

On the other hand we have those who deny basic facts because they don't like the conclusions that others draw from them.

(1) Vaccines work against COVID! (Yes, they work incredibly well).

(2) If we force everyone to be vaccinated and many fewer people will die. (True, without a doubt).

(3) Therefore, we should force people to be vaccinated.(Absolutely NOT).

You don't have to deny (1) and (2) to reject (3).

---

My concern isn't that vaccines can't be effective. My concern is have we glommed on to a solution path in disregard for potentially better solutions? Is the force multiplier of a behemoth, inflexible, not great at solving complex problems government actually sacrificing lives due to the blinders of a vaccination strategy? When we lost the benefit of infection containment, which no one can deny was THE objective to stop/slow COVID via vaccines before they were developed, we had to face new realities of the sickness. It hyper spreads and hyper mutates in the vaxxed and unvaxxed alike. This is a unique challenge, and frankly the fact we aren't farther along with treatment and treatment development has to be concerning looking at macro trends.

---

Vaccines were not the only medical intervention the government funded through Operation Warp Speed (ever hear of monoclonal antibody treatments?), but I do seem to recall that the new administration kind of shut down the program. (Would have to double check to be sure).

---

Monoclonal Antibodies suffer from the same Achilles heel as the vaccine. Again, a product of hyper spread and mutation.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Quite the rant.

The gist of it is you refuse to admit when you were wrong, Sam, regardless of the cost.

Interesting, though, that you mocked me for doing research about the virus instead of just going along. How big has your idol statue of Fauci become, Sam?

Big enough to ignore the signals when doctors and nurses are fired for not agreeing with Administrators? Big enough to ignore the lies you have been told for so long?

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"99% defeatable sounds great. It's also completely meaningless if hospitals can't handle the other 1%."

It's completely meaningFUL to those helped.

Just as coercion is meaningful harm to those who lose their jobs, businesses, who are prevented from visiting sick loved ones, who are denied their right to worship at church, who are shut out of public forums simply for having an opinion not in line with the rich and powerful elites.

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And this is why you shouldn't ever let unaccountable government employees dictate policy. Political leaders are responsible for their decisions and they are responsible to act within the law even during a pandemic. This is not China. Many of our politicians seem to have forgotten this.

On the other hand we have those who deny basic facts because they don't like the conclusions that others draw from them.

(1) Vaccines work against COVID! (Yes, they work incredibly well).

(2) If we force everyone to be vaccinated and many fewer people will die. (True, without a doubt).

(3) Therefore, we should force people to be vaccinated.(Absolutely NOT).

You don't have to deny (1) and (2) to reject (3).

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My concern isn't that vaccines can't be effective. My concern is have we glommed on to a solution path in disregard for potentially better solutions? Is the force multiplier of a behemoth, inflexible, not great at solving complex problems government actually sacrificing lives due to the blinders of a vaccination strategy? When we lost the benefit of infection containment, which no one can deny was THE objective to stop/slow COVID via vaccines before they were developed, we had to face new realities of the sickness. It hyper spreads and hyper mutates in the vaxxed and unvaxxed alike. This is a unique challenge, and frankly the fact we aren't farther along with treatment and treatment development has to be concerning looking at macro trends.

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Vaccines were not the only medical intervention the government funded through Operation Warp Speed (ever hear of monoclonal antibody treatments?), but I do seem to recall that the new administration kind of shut down the program. (Would have to double check to be sure).

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Monoclonal Antibodies suffer from the same Achilles heel as the vaccine. Again, a product of hyper spread and mutation.

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Here is an interesting opinion piece about Warp Speed.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/operation-warp-speed-slowly-gets-its-due-covid-deaths-vaccine-omicron-monoclonal-antibodies-biden-11643646972

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam: "The goal has always been to immunize as many as possible"

Your goal perhaps, but not Medicine's goal. Herd Immunity has always been the goal of virus experts.

And no, I am not 'substituting' my views, simply reminding you what doctors prior to 2019 said, and will say in future.

It's not that vaccines are a bad idea, it's that so much done, and so much of the way things were forced on people, with so much unnecessary harm, could and should have been different.

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And you don't get herd immunity just by focusing on the most vulnerable. The whole point of herd immunity is to protect them from disease transmitted by the less vulnerable.

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Actually, that's exactly how we should have done it. Vaccinate the vulnerable, and let those for whom CV will not be serious disease catch it and be treated with therapeutics.

That would have given us stronger and longer immunity than the vaccines, which have diminishing marginal benefit with each boost and ultimately leave the vaxxed more likely to be infected than the unvaxxed or naturally immune.

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According to "evidence" which you've repeatedly proven yourself unable to read and comprehend. In other words it don't say what you done thunk it said.

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Says exactly, obviously that natural immunity is stronger/longer, ergo less a threat to the vulnerable.

And literally everything we see shows herd immunity will not be possible via vaccines. I.E. if you need quarterly boosters, you by definition are not at hers immunity.

Natural Immunity.🚨

Johns Hopkins finds 99% (!) of people with Covid prior infections have antibodies.

Plus: Natural Immunity did not decline *at all* after 650 days! Also: 55% of *unconfirmed* Covid cases have antibodies.

This is what Herd Immunity looks like. It's *over.*🔻 pic.twitter.com/PNf6MLv3F7

— Kyle Becker 🚚🚚🚚 (@kylenabecker) February 4, 2022

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Harvard medical professor says it's time to move on from pandemic:

“It’s time to let the young, healthy and “anyone who wants to move on” from the pandemic do so, said Dr. Stefanos Kales, a professor at Harvard Medical School.” https://t.co/s6W6cH6UXe

— Alicia Smith (@Alicia_Smith19) February 5, 2022

These tweets — with a photo showing Stacey Abrams maskless surrounded by masked children & showing Abrams promoting it from her own account — have now both been removed. (Abrams deleted her own tweet and it appears that the original account has been deactivated or something). pic.twitter.com/qzzAPolsE2

— Jerry Dunleavy (@JerryDunleavy) February 6, 2022

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam: "The goal has always been to immunize as many as possible"

Your goal perhaps, but not Medicine's goal. Herd Immunity has always been the goal of virus experts.

And no, I am not 'substituting' my views, simply reminding you what doctors prior to 2019 said, and will say in future.

It's not that vaccines are a bad idea, it's that so much done, and so much of the way things were forced on people, with so much unnecessary harm, could and should have been different.

---

And you don't get herd immunity just by focusing on the most vulnerable. The whole point of herd immunity is to protect them from disease transmitted by the less vulnerable.

---

Actually, that's exactly how we should have done it. Vaccinate the vulnerable, and let those for whom CV will not be serious disease catch it and be treated with therapeutics.

That would have given us stronger and longer immunity than the vaccines, which have diminishing marginal benefit with each boost and ultimately leave the vaxxed more likely to be infected than the unvaxxed or naturally immune.

---

According to "evidence" which you've repeatedly proven yourself unable to read and comprehend. In other words it don't say what you done thunk it said.

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Says exactly, obviously that natural immunity is stronger/longer, ergo less a threat to the vulnerable.

And literally everything we see shows herd immunity will not be possible via vaccines. I.E. if you need quarterly boosters, you by definition are not at hers immunity.

Natural Immunity.🚨

Johns Hopkins finds 99% (!) of people with Covid prior infections have antibodies.

Plus: Natural Immunity did not decline *at all* after 650 days! Also: 55% of *unconfirmed* Covid cases have antibodies.

This is what Herd Immunity looks like. It's *over.*🔻 pic.twitter.com/PNf6MLv3F7

— Kyle Becker 🚚🚜🐎 (@kylenabecker) February 4, 2022

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You're confusing herd immunity with culling the herd.

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false dilemma.

In a pandemic, until herd immunity is reached, the herd will be culled. That's why one should not do things that forestall herd immunity, like using mRNA vaccines outside of vulnerable demographics.

No nation on earth has been able to keep its population current enough on vaccines to stop the spread of the virus. Fortunately, the virus has evolved into benign disease. Ergo, stop vaccinating healthy people and let them gain natural immunity so that we can reach herd immunity.

So simple. You're in a hole. Quit digging.

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Rules for thee but not for me. Right @JamaalBowmanNY? pic.twitter.com/10M02yVANp

— Libs of Tik Tok (@libsoftiktok) February 6, 2022

Liberal hypocrisy starts at the top. Maskless Obama w the filthy peasants who all have to wear theirs while rehabbing his multi-million $ beachfront property that has a sea wall that environmentalists say ENCOURAGES BEACH EROSION, but he’s using a loophole that allows it to stay https://t.co/L25Xua2aOA pic.twitter.com/u6uSvJ6RJC

— Old School Tin-Foil-Hat Rock Chick (@KathleenDoty) February 6, 2022